I think it's time.

[marzuku]

I think it is time we introduced Marks to recall/Porting.

Arguements for it, we could need finishing that up before beta, it is boring walking all the way to certain spots and it might be something to look forward to while lvling, being able to clear spots that is.

BTW, we dont actually have spots which can be cleared yet, meaning spots where the mobs dont instantly respawn and give alot of exp and gear, like Barbs and the 4 chambers, imps, Ds trolls, HD's etc.

but once we do have such a spot people will be porting inn and out and fighting for the right to clear so they can lvl.

You could use the animation from recall and just change the colour to Black or whatever like forming a black hole/wormhole to the spot you want 2 go.

Suggest it works like on Xen, you have a port button assigned, press it and then you need a number from 0-9(10 numbers)

this would make it easier to explore and test while you where high lvl.

Marz

[WACOO]

yeah, marks... thats something I think is needed, now how many evidyon will support is a other question.

but the "recall" we have now feels pretty dull and I can see it used mainly as a "un-stuck" thingy in the future.

[Karl G.]

Whether or not to add marks is a big design decision--one that we have discussed in the past, and I'm sure us devs will cover again before beta.

As of our last talk, though, we had opted not to implement marks in the game because doing so shrinks the world dramatically. As soon as a new area is discovered, everyone in the game can get there and all the work we put into creating a big, interesting world is for nothing. The ability to discover new areas in the game and go adventuring is completely gone.

On the other hand, being able to clear zones like that and fight over control of hunting areas was a big part of Xenimus that I did enjoy. It was really cool to be able to port-hop from the square and find yourself somewhere way off in the world--it kinda gave you inspiration to make it to higher level so you could go explore. I think we have a system that will provide this feeling, so we'll see how it goes.

I guess the upshot is, we're considering it. One of the reasons the recall system is so nice is that you actually have to *get* somewhere before you can portal there. If you have any ideas about how to make portaling work let us know.

[marzuku]

There will be alot of exploring i dont doubt that for the lower level players, though i recall my mate Geezmo and me on his character Olleh just waiting to reach that level when we could port so we could clear clearable monsters.

i think creara porta was obtainable at level 11/12, after that gaining the spell, gaining a new stronghold that nobody had before was to be our priority so we had a unlimited storage of magical power, we chose the t1 mana pool way down by the dragon claw boss beneath the GY, as i had explored before on Mm3 this was a good spot when you didnt want to be bothered.(though later was filled with high lvls)

We then we both agreed to get certain spots to be able to clear fast enough to level beyond our capability, i though as you know grind like heck and in a couple of days that level 15 character named Olleh was 21 and i stopped playing.

My point here is:

After a certain period of time people will already know where everything is but they will be freaking irritated by the time they use to cross these lands.
as showed in every mmorpg after certain levels one is able to obtain some kind of transport be it mount/port/wings/speed.
i think it is logical that we have a port spell with 1-5 marks for the most important spots its logical in the aspect that our character develops and has something to look forward to like beam.
then if you want to travel you will have to use gasform/attackrun/walk, and judging by your post there will still be alot of exploring to do but those 5 marks will be back to "Strongholds" like Castles/manapools/Towns certain central spots between good hunting spots etc.


BTW, i think you're game will be more successfull if you dont throw us into a huge bum game, but release certain zones as people become higher level, this way people will look forward to new updates etc.

[Richard. UK]

My feedback on this Karl

I actually beleive the recall system is fine, however what if you designed a dungeon Karl where you could recall to and from, where there are stages (stair cases/portal thingies in xenimus) of these towers or dungeons to different rooms etc so this would replicate the feelings of "Clearing" rooms as Marz pointed out, but at the same time means you are using the recall system to and from. Many of these types of towers and dungeons could exist in the game and i'm sure wouldn't take much to design or implement.

And my final suggestion is how the recall is operating, could it be possible for recall to become a "portal" like in xenimus?, this will bring the elements of port hopping and trying to find out where the other players are hunting (such as these dungeon towers) and give you inspiration to want to hunt in those dungeons towers and those high levels rooms of the towers etc.

[Karl G.]

Thanks for the feedback, we'll talk about this at our next dev meeting.

You gave me a kinda weird idea I havent thought about yet but just wanted to put out there: making geosid recall open a portal for others in reverse. I.e. when you're recalling somewhere, others standing on the portal will be swapped with where you are. Could be kindof annoying with everyone recalling to sq now that I think about it. Anyway it was just an idea.

Let me now if you guys have any other input.

[WACOO]

The mark system doesn't have to be like xen. Maybe less marks?

But, e.g that you cannot mark everywhere, only on certain "normal mob spawns".

Because having to run back and forward 24/7 is just annoying, like if you have to find a new lvling place and it takes a while to get there.

[xen01]

Simple solution.

Only make it so you can enter your ports, no one else can.

[marzuku]

Simple solution.

Only make it so you can enter your ports, no one else can.

No on else?? Port jumping Stays period!!!

[Rabit561]

Simple solution.

Only make it so you can enter your ports, no one else can.

No on else?? Port jumping Stays period!!!

Agreed.

[Karl G.]

We discussed this at our meeting yesterday and I think we found a good solution.

[Rabit561]

Care to elaborate?

[Karl G.]

The system we came up with is pretty interesting:
1- portals of breeds ala xenimus will all be possible (self port, instaport, reditus, etc)
2- you can have 10 marks; however, not all ares of all maps can be marked. most dungeons except for various mana pools can't be marked, for example, and there are limitations to how portals can be created between distinct maps--for example, you can't portal from continent A to continent B. the exact reason for this and the explanation comes from the storyline and will be made more clear I promise
3- geosids can portal you to other activated geosids, which are scattered throughout the world
4- the geosid 'recall' ability can be used to portal in&out of areas even that are no-mark. if you're shrining, for example, you can take a break and go to town, then resume back in the shrine
5- if you die, recalling will take you to the last place you recalled to before you died. ex: you are recalling between town and a dungeon. after chatting a bit in town, you recall into the dungeon, walk a few rooms further inside and get killed by Big Boss. You respawn in town. As long as you don't log off, the next time you recall you will be back in the dungeon again a few rooms before the area where Big Boss killed you.

[Rabit561]

1. Fantastic
2. Was kind of hoping for more then 10 but okay lol.. Not being able to port from 2 different continents is kind of a bummer but I'm sure we will all just mark at the geosid's.. lol
3. Geosid's? Well that's different lol..
4. How does this recall ability work? I mean I thought we could'nt port in and out of certain places, but with the geosides we can? How could we get the geosids to port to the place?
5. Wait now the geosid's can port you to places you have died at? C'mon, way to out there.. Keep it simple, just let the geosids (Mounted Port's to places) simply just port to many different parts of the world.. Why not just keep it cool and simple?

[marzuku]

i imagine how many totally nooby people will port into a Boss lose hp.. port to town buy more pots and go back and forth like that until he kills the boss..??

im seeing alot of loopholes for abuse here.. hope we aint aiming for such a game.

part of the stupid pk ability is to be able to kill who ever is grinding your spot, stealing your house, stealing a castle etc.. but i guess now that wont work cause people can just pot up and come back in a sec and kill you

just make it simple

port back and forth, if dead, recall is reset like when you turn of your broadband service and your internettsss has to reset.

otherwize why not just like xen but only fueled by Geosids?


U know what??? Remove recall?? its fucking irritating watching some one you are pking dissapear while walking since the port has no cast time?

Part of the sick risky poo of being pkd was when you had to trans all around like crazy until the port had formed then enter before the pkr killed you.. now that wont be possible because every1 will be recalling like b!tches once they see me comming!

[Rabit561]

i imagine how many totally nooby people will port into a Boss lose hp.. port to town buy more pots and go back and forth like that until he kills the boss..??

im seeing alot of loopholes for abuse here.. hope we aint aiming for such a game.

part of the stupid pk ability is to be able to kill who ever is grinding your spot, stealing your house, stealing a castle etc.. but i guess now that wont work cause people can just pot up and come back in a sec and kill you

just make it simple

port back and forth, if dead, recall is reset like when you turn of your broadband service and your internettsss has to reset.

otherwize why not just like xen but only fueled by Geosids?

I say just keep it like Xen..

Damn.. Me and you sure do think alike Marz

[marzuku]

I say just keep it like Xen..

Damn.. Me and you sure do think alike Marz

u so sexy, you make me Hoooooneeey, sucky sucky 2 dollar!

[Richard. UK]

U know what??? Remove recall?? its fucking irritating watching some one you are pking dissapear while walking since the port has no cast time?

Although I don't tend to agree with the tone of this point, I do think that recall could possibly do with being delayed in some way whether that be:

1. An open cast portal of some form. (similar to the "marked" portals but possibly create a differentiating colour scheme.)
or
2. Casting delay of some sort? (on the current recall self portal system)

Anyone agree?

Richard

[Rabit561]

There's a reason why people called Reditus "pop" in xenimus

It's instant.

And a Life Saver in many cases.. lol

[Karl G.]

This exactly is the reason why we haven't introduced portals yet. Everyone has their own opinion about what is "best" and the bottom line is they're tough to get right. We'll test out some ideas but don't expect a portal update yet.

[Karl G.]

So here's a more complete list of the challenges with portaling. Since we all agree that some kind of portaling IS necessary, if you'd like to have input on the system try to solve these and related problems. These are presented as if we had an unlimited, mark-anywhere portal system. Obviously this won't be the case, but we have two extremes (complete access and no access) and we're trying to find a happy medium:

- We couldn't have shrine-type areas because people would just portal to the end of them.
- No part of dungeons could be "special" because people would just ignore the rest of the dungeon completely--and we would have wasted our time and the server's resources creating them.
- Unique monsters would have to be severely limited in the items they drop and the exp they give, otherwise they'd never spawn for more than a few minutes since people would be constantly camping them
- All delivery quests, discovery quests (visit these areas, talk to these people, find this shrine) would be pointless since the player could skip everything by just getting someone to portal them to all the necessary points
- As soon as new map content was added to the game, it wouldn't be new anymore even if the people discovering it tried to keep it secret. Ex: One person figures out the trick to getting into a secret hall filled with cool monsters and good loot. He ports there, someone else porthops and marks the location. Being a douche this other person just sits in town making portals to the area and everyone now has a mark inside the area.
- Players far below the level which an area is intended for can probably get anywhere in it without much trouble--portal, trans/trans/trans, mark, die, respawn. Repeat X times.

And here are some problems with preventing marks in a dungeon or area:
- If you run out of potions or supplies, you're pretty much screwed since you can't get back in without starting over.
- If you die & respawn in a dungeon you have to start completely over, and your gear will almost certainly be gone by the time you get back. If the cost of accessing the dungeon is very high you just basically wasted your time.
- Since monsters spawn constantly, there is no safe place to wait and talk strategy (or talk to someone in real life who may be more important than the game you're currently playing). Since you can't leave, it's basically just a constant fight.



And here are some more detailed responses for you, Marz:

i imagine how many totally nooby people will port into a Boss lose hp.. port to town buy more pots and go back and forth like that until he kills the boss..??

How is this different from doing the exact same thing with portals? Also this can be easily solved by having the bosses regenerate hp after a while.

part of the stupid pk ability is to be able to kill who ever is grinding your spot, stealing your house, stealing a castle etc.. but i guess now that wont work cause people can just pot up and come back in a sec and kill you

Again, how is this different from portals? Someone kills you, you mark a spot and go get your crew, port them all to the hunting area and away you go.

port back and forth, if dead, recall is reset like when you turn of your broadband service and your internettsss has to reset.

This system lets you find your body without having to go wandering through the wilderness. Exactly the same thing could be achieved with portals, too, as long as you had a mark near your body. You could even mark ON your body when you died.

U know what??? Remove recall?? its fucking irritating watching some one you are pking dissapear while walking since the port has no cast time?

It does have a cast time. It doesn't work like a cast-it-and-walk-through portal, which may be the issue, but it definitely isn't instant.

[Richard. UK]

- We couldn't have shrine-type areas because people would just portal to the end of them.

I feel that this shouldn't happen because it would render the achievement, developement and hard work pointless.
Rule this one out in my opinion but
to combat the opposing statement:

And here are some problems with preventing marks in a dungeon or area:
- If you run out of potions or supplies, you're pretty much screwed since you can't get back in without starting over.
- If you die & respawn in a dungeon you have to start completely over, and your gear will almost certainly be gone by the time you get back. If the cost of accessing the dungeon is very high you just basically wasted your time.
- Since monsters spawn constantly, there is no safe place to wait and talk strategy (or talk to someone in real life who may be more important than the game you're currently playing). Since you can't leave, it's basically just a constant fight.
- No part of dungeons could be "special" because people would just ignore the rest of the dungeon completely--and we would have wasted our time and the server's resources creating them.
- Unique monsters would have to be severely limited in the items they drop and the exp they give, otherwise they'd never spawn for more than a few minutes since people would be constantly camping them
- All delivery quests, discovery quests (visit these areas, talk to these people, find this shrine) would be pointless since the player could skip everything by just getting someone to portal them to all the necessary points
- As soon as new map content was added to the game, it wouldn't be new anymore even if the people discovering it tried to keep it secret. Ex: One person figures out the trick to getting into a secret hall filled with cool monsters and good loot. He ports there, someone else porthops and marks the location. Being a douche this other person just sits in town making portals to the area and everyone now has a mark inside the area.
- Players far below the level which an area is intended for can probably get anywhere in it without much trouble--portal, trans/trans/trans, mark, die, respawn. Repeat X times.

I feel that this is a problem, I do feel that players new and old to the game would get annoyed with wasting time having to restart loosing items.
Thinking of a possible way around this, what if players at a certain level? or complete a quest to achieve the spell for Crystal Geosid? (or similar); this spell is effectively a portable safezone on use. However, unlike all spells this spell is only useable in designated "Dungeons" or "Shrines", and also costs a hell of alot of geosid. On use grants the player an aura or a buff which enables them the safezone ability of invulnerable to evil during the course of a "Dungeon" or "Shrine". During which time they can talk to their friend plot the next stages or recall to town (at which point the aura is ineffective outside the dungeon but still active) and then recall back to the dungeon or shrine etc (where the aura or buff is effective and still active). If you die whilst during the epic dungeon you know that you can recall back to where you last used your Crystal Geosid because this was effectively your "SavePoint" or "RestPoint" if you used recall to town, or maybe the Crystal Geosid causes recall point to be re-marked to current location, I don't know that is for discussion!. I think this may provide the flexibility that you might be looking for possibly


Maybe that idea combats a few of your thoughts Karl (senses braincells stirring lol)!


Richard

[Vapore]

On the whole subject of portals... Here's my opinion on how it should work.

The portal only works for the person casting it.
Instead of a portal animation, (Like in Xenimus) you just explode (Like the reditus amulet) to your location.
2-5 second delay.
Can be interrupted by damage. (Meaning you would have to cast it again if you got hit)
Disable trans in dungeons.
Allow marking in dungeons since you would have to clear up to that mark.

[Karl G.]

As Joe will tell you, I'm personally against "disabling" things just for the sake of bringing about a result--usually, there is a better way and just making something unavailable is arbitrary and can make the game feel really limited. Early Xenimus was all about you can do whatever the game permits--and for the most part, anything you think you were able to do, you were. There wasn't an area where transing just "didn't work" for some reason, and I think that the combination of freedoms EJ provided was unique and interesting. With better design (i.e. he had thought about the portal system at the start and the effects it would have on the game instead of patching up the various exploits with ugly bandages), this principle really could have let Xenimus succeed.

I had thought perhaps that preventing transing might work in a similar way to gas form. Why you didn't want to gas through adepts? They would dispel you! Given this, I was thinking of making creatures have abilities triggered by trans--dispel could be one of them, but other interesting effects could include a trans locus, or a "pull" spell, where a monster would swap positions with you or pull you toward it if you tried transing. They could even be smart enough to pull you into traps, which I think would be pretty fun to play against.

[Joe M.]