Reasons for a skills-based game

[Karl G.]

A thought occured to me about our character advancement system. If we have a graded skills system--where skills, spells and the like increase gradually--it may give Born to Rule a better overall feel than if a strict level system were used.

For example, getting the next level of a skill or higher spell for attaining a level brings a myriad of benefits simultaneously, thereby making the difference between a level 51 without those benefits and level 52 with them fairly large. However, if skills advance by expending experience points on them individually, a person who has attained level 51 and one at level 52 may have such diverse skill sets that they are closer in abilities.

I propose that when a character gains experience points, they may be "spent" on raising attributes or skills. The total amount of experience gained will be mostly for the purpose of being able to define the general ability a character should have.

[Joe M.]

that's pretty much what I had in mind.

what I've been thinking is that a level will mean two things: raised mp/hp, bigger skill caps. Then all skills be based on use, and going down with disuse.
I'm not sure about assigning skill points versus skill points through advancement, though.

Maybe if you could assign skill points up to a certain point, different for each skill, and then you have to advance through use?

The problem with "buying" skills is that if you go out and bushwhack 108 skeletons, that shouldn't really make you better at brewing potions...
The problem with skills through use is evident in Xenimus--you don't know you're making progress, it leads to spamming of skill use and massive dumps of gold, and it's boring.

So I definitely see the point of having a skill buying system. I would like to see some skills-through-use, but maybe use that with martial skills, or just advance through use on all skills, but you can buy as well? or maybe successfully using a skill gives you some xp? (the problem there being that it raises your mp/hp to brew potions...)

I would lean toward a skill buying system, with successful use of skills giving a *small* amount of xp, and certain skills also advancing through use--most likely weapon skills.

what do y'all think?

[Karl G.]

Hmm I see that killing stuff really wouldn't make you better at doing things; and, conversely, doing stuff shouldn't make you stronger.

I think the system you described in which level affects HP, MP and skill caps whereas skill use affects their actual value would be best.

What about ability points, though? I'm talking basic strength, agility, etc. Should they simply be bestowed when the next level is achieved?

[Keats]

Perhaps there could be a way to do that. Say you kill 100 skeletons with a sword and earn enough experience to upgrade. Since you got that experience through killing 100 skeletons with a sword you would be limited to upgrading things like strength, agility, etc. But if you killed those 100 skeletons with a potion that you created, you would be able to upgrade your potion skill, but not strength or agility.

Now, I have no ideas on how you'd implement this, that would be your department, Karl

[Matt W.]

good to see you again keats, your presence enlightens our boards

[Karl G.]

Hey Keats! Great to see you!

That wouldn't be too hard to implement. Good idea Any thoughts, Joe?

[Joe M.]

looks fine to me...
running out the door though. I'll give it a more thorough look-over later.

[Keats]

Hooray! I'm useful!

[Joe M.]

Keats--

looks like a fine idea. The only problem is the cycle you could get into: raise strength, get xp, raise strength, &c. You'd have a dog of a time getting out of it and expanding yourself.

A system along the same lines, but more limited, would be more player-friendly. If you aquire your XP with sword skills, you could raise your non-combat skills a little bit (maybe 10% of total gain could go toward non-relateds) and the rest would go toward combat-style skills.

Something like that.

[Patrick]

Karl's description and Joe's arguement sound a lot like a certain online game I played named Asheron's Call. Their idea was that each skill cost a certain amount of XP to raise to the next level, but by using the skill, you could reduce the cost to a more managable amount of XP. They also added the concept of specialized skills, which your character progesses in naturally more quickly (selected at character time, irreversible), and trained skills, which do not increase as quickly. Their idea was that level doesn't make a person more powerful, the wise use of XP on skills makes the person.

The benefit of that was that a level 50 could be beaten by a level 45 who spent more time improving his melee skills, or a level 10 warrior might be able to defeat a level 30 alchemist who doesn't know how to fight.

Oddly enough Fable had a way of solving the problem of killing a 100 monsters with an axe and increasing in alchemy skill, which was present in Asheron's Call. The basic of the idea is that you get points to distribute like Karl's idea, but the points are only effective to a certain degree: they increase only skills of the same class. For example, XP earned with an axe applies directly to any number of heavy headed weapons on a shaft, such as maces, hammers, axes, and perhaps spears, but not to something such as alchemy. At the same time, general XP, that is XP that is classless and spendable on any class, was also given. Perhaps you could add a conversion factor such as:

25 Melee XP -> 1 Alchemy XP.

to spice things up a bit, such that idiots can continue to hack away at skeletons and receive *some* benefit, as if perhaps they pondered on alchemy while they fought.

A more radical design was implemented in System Shock 2 and skill points are given for completing a quest, although in this case, it would be more appropriate to be done in a level-by-level basis like "Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance". The idea is that you get these credits, more each time you level, to spend on skills that cost increasing amounts. For example:

* = 1 skill point, or whatever

Alchemy: ** cost = 3 credits
Axe: ***** cost = 15 credits
Trading: * cost = 1 credit

Next Level: 10 credits
Current: 8 credits

This can defeat the idea that using a skill does not equate to progressing in that skill since one can purchase upgrades.