[Important] Portal Debate!!

[Karl G.]

How should portals be handled in Evidyon?

- with spell and items
- by items only (use anywhere to port to your mark)
- by geosids only (use a geosid to port to your mark)

- self only
- open portal that anyone crossing gets transported
- portal only for partied members
- portal using something like "-port"
- combination?

[Sankt Pauli]

I allways liked the way wow handled portals, though i'm not sure if that's a useful solution for a more singleplayer/fastspeed orientated game.
Maybe you could play around with the "hearthstone" concept a bit. Like every area has some kind of hub where you can port to, after you visited it. So let's say you walk from newby-town to uhh... "karlius". From the karlius motel manager you can buy an "entry" in your portlist (or you acquire it by doing a quest). Now if you want to port to karlius you just open your portlist, click "karlius" and voilà, you're there.
That way a newb would be forced to stay on the path you chose, and he couldn't skipt content by being ported to everything. Additionally it would save you the hassle of assigning "portable" and "non-portable" zones.
Ofcourse it would take out most of the freedom in xenimus' current porting system, but in the same time it would kind of "open up" the community. Let's face it, if you have an awesome mark you don't really want to share it with others thus adding to the paranoia-circle xenimus is locked in.
Then again completely free porting/marking has a charme too, it ain't easy mahn. :J

[Karl G.]

You pretty much summed up my decision dilemma. I want the game to be freeform and exciting--but at the same time, I don't want to create that feeling of jealous super-paranoia about your items/marks/level/abilities etc...

I'd really like to hear more about what you guys think. Feel free to take this one and run with the possibilities.

[Sankt Pauli]

[hilarious]Btw since this is about navigating somehow, at level 25 or 30 (or xx) you should get a spell that lets you mount any monster of your level and lower and ride on it.[/hilarious]
Would be pointless, but people like me would spend hours just to be a freaky jerk mounted on a rare skeleton. :]

[kuba]

I also like the "heathstone" idea where you can obtain portal marks by actually visiting the location, however I would limit this to say 3 self-portal marks, with some kind of a timer so they don't take away from the portal ability.

I still think a magic class should have portal spells. I would switch up the way Xen did it and give them insta-port at a mid level (around 12-16) and then portal at higher level (30). After thinking about it I would get rid of Xenimus's marking system and do something similar to Diablo's porting. Basically any town / dungeon / special area you visit would have a portal entry given via NPC or quest that you can portal to. This would give you full control over where people will be ported to in an area, taking away from portal abuse and skipping content, but also retain enough freedom for players.

[Vapore]

- self only
- portal only for partied members

I personally like that the best.

[Burnt Ferret]

party members i like.

i also got a kick out of sankt's "mount-a-creature" idea.

[Karl G.]

i also got a kick out of sankt's "mount-a-creature" idea.

me too I think it would be pretty sweet to be able to ride monsters. the player meshes I have already have a "ride" animation built-in...so maybe I can work something up. it's definitely not out of the question, but this wouldn't be in the next few updates

[Cagen]

After thinking about it I would get rid of Xenimus's marking system and do something similar to Diablo's porting. Basically any town / dungeon / special area you visit would have a portal entry given via NPC or quest that you can portal to. This would give you full control over where people will be ported to in an area, taking away from portal abuse and skipping content, but also retain enough freedom for players.

I like the idea of having a Diablo like system but how about incorporating it with a Xen style system also. For example in the open world (outside of towns, dungeons, other enclosed places of importance) you would be able to create marks and port to these marks, however in towns/dungeons etc. you would not be able to create marks and instead would have way points. You would have an initial way point right inside a dungeon entrance/town entrance or area of importance and you could also have multiple way points in larger dungeons which would have to be adventured to so people don't skip content. These way points would only be accessible to use once you reach them yourself and gain the entry in your log. Some of the way points could even be hidden or in secret areas, others would be more obvious and noticeable, for instance one outside of a raid bosses room/area/lair so that groups/guilds could take it on.

This way low level characters hunting out in the wilderness will be able to mark locations for easy access to hunting areas, instead of having to run for miles to get back to that sweet hunting spot they just discovered. Higher level players could use these marks to port low level characters to or to mark outside of the dungeons so their friends/guild/group can obtain the first way point of that dungeon/area. This will give the player a sense of freedom with traveling allowing them to go anywhere they please in the world (relatively) instantly however it forces them to play through dungeons and stops them skipping through content, without making them drudge through lower level content in a large dungeon.

Each way point and portal mark can be listed in a log that you bring up with a designated key or from the hud/menus. From this log you can either bind a way point/portal mark location to a key or click on it to start casting the required spell.

As for the use of the two different methods of transportation, portals should allow anyone to enter, this way you can easily port friends or newbies to certain areas or outside of specific dungeons to get the initial dungeon way point for themselves, without any hassle of having a specific command to type or having to group up (the addition of "-port" to Xen always pissed me off). Way points should only transport the players who have that specific way point in their log, if they are in your guild or group at the time you cast the spell. This would encourage players to adventure or to group up and show each other where the deeper/further way points are if they want to hunt together or tackle a boss as a group/guild and would have to have played through the whole dungeon to be able to skip to the boss at a later date (if this boss has a way point outside of it, not all should).

Quick break down of the suggestion as follows.

2 types of transportation
- Location portals
- Way point portals

Location portals allow anyone to travel through. Marks are created by the player but only areas outside of dungeons/towns are markable.

Way point portals allow people who are grouped with you or are in your guild to travel through but only if they have the same way point in their log. Way points are scattered around towns/dungeons and are only accessible to the player once they have visited them before.

Both types of portal are cast as a spell by the player.

[Draco]

I've got it! After reading through the thread, and Cagen's recent post... I came up with a solution to keep most of all versatility of free-marking as well as restrictions.

1. Allow players to have X amount of marks like in xen; these are "normal marks".

2. Players can mark the overworld and towns as much as they'd like.

3. Special areas on the overworld and dungeons would be un-markable.

4. There can be "waypoint rooms" placed around in dungeons. Players port to these waypoint rooms without marking them; but only if they've been there. These rooms would give you "waypoint marks".

5. You can only go inside another person's portal to a waypoint room only if you've been to that room before.

6. Normal portals can be normal color, while waypoint portals are a different color.

7. The MP Cost / Item usage of normal portals and waypoint portals is shared... you still have to use a scroll or use MP for either portal type... the only catch is you have your normal marks, and then your waypoint marks to choose from.

8. Normal marks are changable; waypoint marks are permanently saved.

9. Portals should warp ANYONE if they touch the portal, but if you really must add something... add an option to the options screen.
"Don't enter portals automatically [Checkbox]"
"Button to press to enter portals [Key-set box]"

Additional idea... Waypoint Stones... just thought of it so maybe not so good but: in order to save a waypoint mark, you must use a waypoint stone on the waypoint mark... these stones could be bought from pretty much any town. Waypoint stones are consumable and not permanent... it just allows you to grab the waypoint mark, and destroys 1 stone.

[Cagen]

Not sure why I included towns in with the dungeons for way points but I was dog tired when posting lol.

Sounds good Draco, though the stones idea would really just serve to annoy people who forget to bring stones with them, probably not a great addition. I really wouldn't want an option that stopped you going through portals, anything that could hinder transportation through portals is a big no from me (unless its way point related).

[Joe M.]

All too complicated.

I suggest we start from the idea of only allowing portals to and from geosids. If you think there ought to be more freedom, why? and how much?

[Sankt Pauli]

Well free marking and porting definetely has something to it, nothing beats a good port pk. :J
On the other hand it also means characters can freely "skip content". :/

So having markable and non-markable zones is probably the best way to deal with it (one flag more to set :p ). IF you go for that though i suggest a better indicator as the "poc" sound in xen. And only being able to open one portal at a time would reduce annoying portal-spamming.

[Draco]

With the way I suggested it all, now that I think about it, yeah the waypoint stones would just annoy people.

With all I suggested, it would actually be really simple once you get into the game with it.

You'd have normal xen-like portals, still be able to send people to some port pk marks, but they wouldn't be deep within dungeons and all.

However, along with making a portal, you can press a button or click a button on screen to show your Waypoint marks, and port anyone to those waypoint marks too.

It would all actually be really simple, not hard to get used to... and would solve a lot of problems.

[Joe M.]

Without the waypoint stones, your system would be a good one. My only concern then is the question of content, and the larger question of what the geosids are to be for if not for portals. It seems if they don't do that, then they don't have much of a function and might as well be taken out.

Karl?

[Joe M.]

To make clear:

Draco suggested a system something like this:
1. One can freely mark and port to/from anywhere not-dungeon.
2. In-dungeon one can only mark and port to/from certain "waypoints."
3. One cannot pass through a portal to a certain waypoint unless one has already visited that waypoint.

This system makes sense to me if we're willing to sacrifice two things:
A. Interaction with the world: although having waypoints in dungeons will help combat this problem, we'd still be looking at a world reduced to "hotspots," all linked together by portals. What Sankt Pauli called "skipping content." This encourages a world like Xen's: boring, with only the lower levels having to *travel* to get anywhere.

B. The geosids. This one's up to Karl, of course, but it seems that the geosids would be reduced to superfluity under a system of portals in which the crystals could be bypassed. Granted, this too is a world of "hotspots," but I think a much more manageable one: it would more or less take what Draco calls "waypoints" and make them the *only* way to port. This has problems of its own, but we should be aware of what we're sacrificing in order to have such a free port-system.


Thoughts?

[Cagen]

I have no idea what these geosids are, I have heard them being referenced before but never any description of what they are/were intended to do. However, the way points in dungeons could be the geosids if geosids must be used to port people in the game (for what ever reason).

Way points are a great way for players to not skip content, I am not sure how you can say otherwise. A player must have visited that way point in order to use it and as there is no way to port people inside of dungeons they must have played through the content before. It does eliminate players having to travel through all the newb content again and again getting very repetitive and boring just to get further into the dungeon (this all depends on how large the dungeons are going to be, Xen's dungeons are tiny and way points would be pointless while Diablo's were a lot larger, though still not that huge) but they will have had to do it at least once and have seen all the content it has to offer and if designed right, would be done at the correct level.

As for the previous post of giving freedom to the player, people hate having to traverse worlds on foot, it is boring and can get repetitive if you have to travel to and from areas, such as towns, all the time. This is why games have portals, mounts, other options of transport such as flight paths. With way points and portals you get the freedom to travel across the world as you see fit as long as you have been to the place you wish to visit to "mark" it, this brings the feel of freedom you have in xenimus and also the fear if you jump through someones port, it also allows port pk'ing just not to places inside dungeons, however people can not dive into someones port that goes to right outside a boss or chest or other area of importance in a dungeon. Way points can be located where ever the dungeon creator wishes so what content players see can be manipulated without players having to go through the entire dungeon each time just to get back to their hunting spot.

I see Draco has stolen my suggestion now, instead of tweaked it heh .

[Karl G.]

Without the waypoint stones, your system would be a good one. My only concern then is the question of content, and the larger question of what the geosids are to be for if not for portals. It seems if they don't do that, then they don't have much of a function and might as well be taken out.

Karl?

Geosids have much more function than just portaling. They are also responsible for charging item special abilities, quick recovery of hp/mp and more (that I haven't finalized yet).

Way points are a great way for players to not skip content, I am not sure how you can say otherwise...

A way-point system discourages the need to travel more than once. Each player has to play through sections of a dungeon once in order to get to various way-points--except that isn't what will happen. What will happen is that lower-level players will get together and find a higher-level player to run them through various waypoints just to get them in their list.

I have no idea what these geosids are

Large crystals that hold the world together. Read the story.

I'm just going to throw this out there as an idea, so tell me what you think:
Players could create a portal to their currently "bound" geosid (the one where they spawn) from anywhere in the world with a single spell/item. From the geosid, they are able to create a portal to other geosids they have visited and various waypoints.

[Joe M.]

Cagen,

It's all in my previous post. If you'd like to take the two minutes (if that!) required to read what I wrote, you'd save us both some trouble. I don't find anything in your post with which I disagree. All I was doing was pointing out the costs of adopting such a system.

As for the geosids, I am not certain what Karl's intention for them (if any) is at this time, so I'll leave that up to him. I understood that they were to serve as waypoints (the only way to port) and some additional functions. Clearly this is not settled, but I wanted to make clear that there would be little reason to have them in-game if they weren't the waypoints. But maybe they wouldn't be completely superfluous in a mixed-port system.*

---------------------------------
* To save ourselves time, let us designate the three possibilities as the free-port system, the mixed-port system, and the waypoint system.

[Joe M.]

Players could create a portal to their currently "bound" geosid (the one where they spawn) from anywhere in the world with a single spell/item. From the geosid, they are able to create a portal to other geosids they have visited and various waypoints.

That would be the best way to implement a waypoint system.

As for the geosids, even if they serve other functions than just as waypoints, from the story I had envisioned a very geosid-centric world (like what you propose above), and I think that under a mixed-port or free-port system they would lose much of their centrality that a waypoint system would preserve.

So I'm still not sure on whether a mixed-port or a waypoint system would be better, but I'm leaning for now toward a waypoint system.

[Cagen]

Way points are a great way for players to not skip content, I am not sure how you can say otherwise...

A way-point system discourages the need to travel more than once. Each player has to play through sections of a dungeon once in order to get to various way-points--except that isn't what will happen. What will happen is that lower-level players will get together and find a higher-level player to run them through various waypoints just to get them in their list.

It does discourage the need to travel more then once, people generally do not want to go through sections they have already played over and over, unless there is a specific thing to be gained from it, however people will still be experiencing this content at least once. The low level players will still experience this content, even if they have a higher level character take them to the way points so they wont be skipping content. Also, if you make the content interesting enough people will want to explore the dungeon(s), the people who don't want to explore and have to go through each dungeon every single time just to get to a specific part will get extremely bored (again this is completely speculative on the size of the dungeons). To take an example from Xen, how many people actually enjoy going through 6th Jeloc shrine? Little to none would be my estimation. In WoW several of the larger dungeons had multiple entrances to be able to skip the first half or at least a section of the dungeon, as long as you had played through the entire dungeon at least once (or in some cases had someone with the key, this even improved on team work at times.) or dungeons split up into multiple sections with different entrances for each.

I have no idea what these geosids are

Large crystals that hold the world together. Read the story.

I'll read it in a bit, I didn't know the story had game play elements implied in it.

Cagen,

It's all in my previous post. If you'd like to take the two minutes (if that!) required to read what I wrote, you'd save us both some trouble. I don't find anything in your post with which I disagree. All I was doing was pointing out the costs of adopting such a system.

I did read it, which is why I responded to it (both your posts infact).

[Joe M.]

I must not have been clear. My apologies.

[Karl G.]

It does discourage the need to travel more then once, people generally do not want to go through sections they have already played over and over, unless there is a specific thing to be gained from it...

Now that I think about it, that's a very good point. The Xenimus wilderness, for example, doesn't have much in it...so it would be boring to have to move through it constantly to get anywhere interesting.

As for the geosids, even if they serve other functions than just as waypoints, from the story I had envisioned a very geosid-centric world (like what you propose above), and I think that under a mixed-port or free-port system they would lose much of their centrality that a waypoint system would preserve.

So I'm still not sure on whether a mixed-port or a waypoint system would be better, but I'm leaning for now toward a waypoint system.

I'm becoming more keen on waypoints as well--but I like the flexibility of the Xenimus portal system. Being able to hunt, port back to town, sell stuff, then get back to hunting was one of the things that made hunting more fun. Also, it was easier to "fit" it into your day--you didn't have to spend 5-10 minutes getting somewhere so that you could hunt. You just did it.

So here is another possible solution for you both to analyze. Please tell me what you think:
1- A Geosid lets you port only yourself to one of your marks, like in Xenimus
2- A spell can both open a portal back to the caster's bound Geosid, or port only the caster back
3- Opening a portal through which anyone can pass (excepting #2) can only be done to visited waypoint locations. These waypoints have to be visited and marked, and there are a limited number you can have stored simultaneously. This could be called "channeling" from a Geosid, to distinguish it from porting.

This system would allow someone who is hunting to be able to mark where they are, port back to town to take care of business (or log off) then return later--but while still preventing the player from simply "getting the mark" from someone else.

[Draco]

Lol I had all this typed up before Karl's post but I'll post it as it was anyway:
---------

Problem: Newbs having higher levels run them through waypoints; though higher levels will help newbs get what they need... since it can't be avoided completely, best way to deal with it is to just not completely spoil the experience of the game for the newbs.

Here's a good one... in Diablo, a newb often thinks it doesn't matter how many waypoints they get, it means it will allow them to visit any place of importance they need.

To crush this, why not have MANY MANY waypoints, but only allow a player to mark a limited number of them?
Newbs still won't know which waypoints are best, they would be forced to visit the content themselves to find out what they really need or want.

If they want someone higher level to run them through waypoints, then probably the only waypoints that person is going to want to get is the waypoints that will be most useful to them at their current level, or rather "fitting for them to visit the content".

It would be pointless for a newb to grab the higher level waypoints if they don't need them, but they can grab some of the lower level ones then go explore the higher ones as they need them.

This would also envelope teamwork if someone has a waypoint mark that someone else does not.

- - - - -

Also now that I think about it... the point of porting someone to a waypoint that you have that they have as well would be utterly pointless, aside from the fact that only one scroll or portal must be cast to allow more people through... if someone else has the waypoint, why wouldn't they just port to it themselves? This system would help reduce that.

Maybe you could make the waypoint marks have a level requirement to be ported to.

Only players who meet the waypoint level requirement can mark or be ported to that waypoint.

[kuba]

Karl brings up a good point about the convenience of being able to port in-and-out while hunting to resupply, store gear, etc., something which wouldn't be as seamless with a waypoint system.

Here's an idea, very similar to yours Karls..

• Waypoints mark entrances to dungeons, different levels of dungeons, and other areas such as Geosid/HPMP pool sites within the dungeon
• Waypoints mark towns, given via a Town Hall or Town Guard
• All classes have a Portal Book which has Stored Waypoints and Last Waypoint (# of stored waypoints available could be related to Intelligence, class, race, level, or skills)
• Of the four classes (Offensive Magic, Defensive Magic, Tough Melee, Fast Melee) only Magic classes learn the portal ability
• Melee classes use Scrolls or Geosids to portal to locations (Scrolls - portals, Geosids - insta-ports)
• THERE IS NO MARKING SYSTEM, instead Magic classes are given a spell that marks their location (with a convenient icon appearing on the HUD confirming a mark has been made) which can then be teleported to instantly through a separate teleportation spell (basically how Reditus worked)

This gives mages the ability to still hunt freely in-and-around dungeons using the mark/return teleport spell, and enough freedom for melee's to hunt with little to no hassle. The difference is that melee's would have to port back to the last nearest waypoint, which in most cases will be saved under Last Waypoint in the PB (to prevent from having to overwrite any stored waypoints). It seems logical for melee classes to carry more supplies while they hunt anyhow, so its really a rather small restriction.

One major difference between this system and Xenimus's is the freedom to port-pk. Portals can be entered by anyone just like the original portals worked in Xenimus, however with the inability to mark cliffs and "jails" port pking is greatly reduced. Rather than relying on the location as a means of port-pk, it would be who was waiting at the portals destination.


Just an idea, and personally the more thought I put into it I'm beginning to lean back towards the complete freedom of Xenimus's marking system.