Class Requirements

[Ratiotile]

Discussion of this idea started in the Starter classes for Subclassing topic.
The basic idea is as follows:

In order for a character to advance into a class, he must meet certain requirements. Classes would not directly determine a character's HP/MP, but would give bonuses. Spells will also not be completely determined by class, though some spells will be class-restricted (red beam, multi nex, etc.). The requirements for each class may include skills, stats, and certain traits.

I'll measure skills on a percentage system: 100% will mean 25pt old xen or roughly 8-10pt new xen.
Let each character recieve 5 + INT/2 skill points per level. A character with the base 10 intelligence will recieve 10 skill points per level, capable of maxing a skill from 0 to 100% in 10 levels.

The first tier of classes will have very minimal requirements. Skills would only be required to be at about 40%. If there are any stat requirement, they will be very low, in the sub-20 range. A player starts off as Novice, and can choose a class on levelup when he meets its requirement.

Some Examples:
Fighter - 40% skill in melee combat and at least one weapon skill.
Rogue - 15 agility.
Apprentice - 40% skill in magic or 15 intelligence.
Initiate - 50% read

Secondary classes will have a higher skill requirement in the 80% range, but stat requirements stay low. Some classes might require specific traits. Secondary classes will give a larger bonus than the base classes. Some classes will intentionally have harder prerequisites.

Paladin - 80% in melee combat, 50% divine, must be holy
Warrior(don't like knight) - 100% melee combat, 50% weapon tactics.
Barbarian(Berzerker?) - 18 strength, battle rage, 70% melee combat.
Ranger - 80% bows, 18 agility.
Thief - 18 agility, at least 50% in each thief skill.
Darkwar - 70% melee combat, 40% shadow, 50% fire.
Druid - 80% in spellcraft, 60% spirit, spirit devotion.
Cleric - 70% read, 60% in spellcraft, 70% divine, must be holy.
Wizard - 100% in spellcraft
Warlock - 70% in spellcraft, shadow devotion, must be level 15

Dual-classing - I like this system because it allows a player to dynamically multi-class. They are no longer locked into a class or combination by a choice they made at character creation. A player should be able to keep classes at different branches of the 'tree'. By different branches, it would mean 2 classes where one isn't the ancestor of the other.
Apprentice/Fighter would be a valid combination
Apprentice/Wizard would not be valid. The Wizard class will automatically replace Apprentice.
Paladin/Cleric sounds funky, but is allowed under this system.
Ranger/Thief is also allowed.
There may be certain exceptions. I think Paladin/Thief would be one of them.

[ziggman]

...i still dont like it...

im 100% ok with doing quests for spells, infact, thats something i would vote for. If your character sucks, and you cannot complete the quest, you cannot get the next set of spells. To acctually have classes restricted because you dont have the proper stats, its just not cool.

a paladin would have to have some amount of intell and wisdom to get 'holy rank' = wasted stat points.
you could never make a pure agil cleric just for the fun of it, or a pure agil druid for the hell of it.
you couldnt make a pure intell ranger.

people will be wasting stat points to meet some dumb requirement so they can be what they want to be.

i dont like your system, i really wish other people would sate thier opinons, its like you and I are the only one discussing this issue.

[Ratiotile]

im 100% ok with doing quests for spells, infact, thats something i would vote for. If your character sucks, and you cannot complete the quest, you cannot get the next set of spells. To acctually have classes restricted because you dont have the proper stats, its just not cool.

I understand, that's why the stat requirements will be low. Perhaps stat requirements for some classes wil be abolished altogether. As I said, the spell system won't be completely based on class, so there may be quests for special spells, and magic skill proficiency needed for normal spells. If a character has 16 Int and can't make Wizard, but has invested a lot of skill into magic, he will be able to cast many of the same spells a wizard could. The exceptions would be Multi Nex and other special class spells, but he could still VFV and trans. I think that's a good compromise. I will be updating the first post.

a paladin would have to have some amount of intell and wisdom to get 'holy rank' = wasted stat points.
you could never make a pure agil cleric just for the fun of it, or a pure agil druid for the hell of it.
you couldnt make a pure intell ranger.

people will be wasting stat points to meet some dumb requirement so they can be what they want to be.

I will try to minimize that, but a few classes have a defining attribute. Actually with the stat reqs under 20, you can make a pure agil cleric, since you get 25 points to start. If there is 18 wisdom required, just put something like 15 18 16 10 16, get shrines, GH, and you're ready to go. The system is meant to be flexible; the stat requirements add a bit of background flavor. Also no stat point will be wasted, for any class.

About holy: it shouldn't require int or wis. Holy means that your mana will be tied with your alignment, and will be an optional trait at character creation and something you can gain during play. Holy will be as it was in old Xen, when it actually had a drawback where you lost all MP for going evil.

Look, I understand that restrictions suck, but they can add more depth to the game world.

[JSunJShineR]

you should be able to place agi on a druid if u want... this way it is mor diverse, what if u made a warlock with fighter stats, you'd be a fighter with posion. but then again you sould just make more classes... as for just havign str, agi,cons,int,wis: i think there should be more.

Strength
Agility
Dexterity
Constitution
Charisma
Intelligence
Wisdom

maybe some more that u think of, because basicly stats on xen are set in stone for each character's class. fighter= either 39 cons or 29 cons, 51 agi or 29 agi or 39, then str. wizzies like 22 wis and tons of int with some cons.... i mean why not diversify it. more stats= more interesting spell oportunities. if you base your pvp off of zap because your energy dev then thats all u'd do stand still and zap for 5 mins.... if it was zap,*spell1*,*spell2*,*spell3*, and they each have cooldown, your diversity in using spells in pvp would greatly increase.

[Ratiotile]

you should be able to place agi on a druid if u want... this way it is mor diverse, what if u made a warlock with fighter stats, you'd be a fighter with posion. but then again you sould just make more classes...

You're looking at it the wrong way. The class requirements are not restrictions. You can place agi on a Druid, you just need to have 18 wisdom on him, which is pretty low. Again, if you want a Fighter with poison, there's no reason to make him a Warlock. You can build your fighter normally, then throw some points into magic skill, poison skill, and/or spend a few points in intelligence to get bonuses to magic. You will be able to get poison spells without being a Warlock. The spells will depend on skills.

I don't think that additional stats are needed, because the diversity you want will be implemented though additional skills.

You should post your thoughts on PvP in the PVP thread, not here.

[ziggman]

if you had to place 18 wisdom ona character to achieve 'holy status' you would be wasting points! if you were trying to go all out melee, you should bealbe to have 18-18-18-10-11. and if you had (dreg) nomad it could be 19-18-18-10-10 i know it wouldnt be LOGICAL to make a melee druid, but in all honesty they work really well. with the extra spell protection it works out great.

like i said i dont believe classes should be determined by stats! and spells shouldnt be determined by stats either.

the best part about a melee druid or cleric, was the sweet buffing/armor spells. this made up for the lack of bounus in melee. even tho my cleric had low hp, he could still stand his ground really well.


oh hey on a side note are we doing away with nighvision spell? if we do we should also do away with invisible and make more monsters non-aggressive.

[Ratiotile]

What I'm trying to achieve here is a kind of unity for stats. In Xen, 1 point of constitution was worth much more HP to a fighter than a mage(rings off), and 1 point of intelligence was worth FAR FAR more MP to a mage than a fighter. Agility was 'wasted' on a mage, and intel/wis 'wasted' on a fighter. I believe that such polarization of stats limits the number of viable builds for each class, resulting in 'cookie-cutter' characters. What this system attempts to do is make each stat useful to each class.

I understand that what you are trying to accomplish is a melee combatant who is weaker than normal fighters, but is bolstered by strong enchantment magic. This can be done in my system, and you can choose between having a Fighter class or being a Druid while accomplishing it. If you view spending 6-8 points in wisdom as wasting points, you can still access buffs by boosting the buff skill high enough to get good buffs. This will result in a character that is stronger physically and less dependant on buffs. However, if you decide to get the 18 wisdom, you are not wasting points! Your character can then class as a Druid and get some sort of bonus. Those points into wisdom will also boost your magic and buffs. By spending points in wisdom you have traded off some physical damage/HP for more MP and stronger buffs.

the best part about a melee druid or cleric, was the sweet buffing/armor spells. this made up for the lack of bounus in melee. even tho my cleric had low hp, he could still stand his ground really well.

Right, if you took points from constitution and put them into wisdon you'd get the same effect. But if you kept those points in constitution you would basically be a Fighter, with the same HP.

It's more logical and more flexible this way. What I don't like is choosing a class and getting spells just because the character is in that class, with no regard to build or skill, not to mention how the value of stats are totally skewed. If we stuck to the Xenimus system, everyone would know the best builds already - "18,18,18,10,11", and there would be no fun era of exploration. I felt that the most fun times in Xenimus were back when there were no best builds and everyone was experimenting. The build of characters like OneMansFate was an example of that era - something that you'd never see today.

* not sure about nv/invisible. But I personally think that invis is quite a problem. However, removing invis won't fix those problems, being high level noob-pkers and asshats

[ziggman]

why not have 'holy rank' based on alignment? instead of stats. that would alieviate most of my issues with your stystem.

[Ratiotile]

'Holy' would not be based on stats in any case.

[a_link_to_the_past]

I like Ratiotiles idea, it mixes things up creating several more possibilites with characters instead of placing concrete linear paths that are in Xenimus now.

Am I correct in thinking that when we create a character, all stats will be at 10
and we do not add beginning stats and skill points (makes more sense like that anyway)

We simply pick a race we want when we create the character then once we lvl up for the first time we have a fork in the road placed before us as to which way we want to take the character. Is this correct also?

If so.. sounds like fun.

[a_link_to_the_past]

a paladin would have to have some amount of intell and wisdom to get 'holy rank' = wasted stat points.

Even if you used stat points to achieve 'holy rank' its not just a title to the character. I am sure there would be benefits that go with it. That would be ridiculous just to use points on just a title... It just depends on what each person whats to do with their character and how they fight.

[Ratiotile]

Am I correct in thinking that when we create a character, all stats will be at 10
and we do not add beginning stats and skill points (makes more sense like that anyway)

I was still thinking of keeping the 25 stat points you get in the beginning, because it allows differentiation between characters from the first level. What are the advantages to not having starting stat points?

We simply pick a race we want when we create the character then once we lvl up for the first time we have a fork in the road placed before us as to which way we want to take the character. Is this correct also?

I like the fork in the road analogy. That's basically what this system will do: create choices for players to control the development of their character.

There will be some more choices to be made in creating a character. Stats, skills, and traits. I should make a post on character creation.

[ziggman]

im tired of arguing the same point, and you dont seem to get it.

do what ever the f-k u want then ok.

[JSunJShineR]

lmao yea this argument is getting boring... rat always wins in the end anywho, w/e.. lets see how game turns out with his ideas.

[Vitriol]

all of this poo is way too complicated.
Like Karl said, stick to early xenimus

[Ratiotile]

It will seem complicated on paper, but once I revise it and we put it in an interface, it will be much simpler.

Ziggman, I am not ignoring you. If you would read some of my posts more carefully, I am creating a compromise. If there is any part which you think you don't understand, just ask. A new class system will not change the gameplay. Gameplay will feel like old Xenimus.