(More) New Game Controls

[Karl G.]

After a lot of thought, I may have come up with another solution. I haven't formulated anything as far as mage classes go, but here's what I want to do with melee:
Primary Mouse Button:

• If held down over a character in the world that is in range, will attack that character (when let go, the attack will stop)
  • A bow will shoot arrows from a distance
  • A sword will swing at the target
  • A staff will pole-arm attack the target
• If not attacking, moves your character toward the mouse's position

Secondary Mouse Button:

• Acts as a "stop action" button if doing so will have an effect (if moving, will stop your character; if invisible or in gas form, will return to normal; if attacking, will stop)
• Turns your character toward the mouse
• If a shield is equipped, will perform "block" action and a certain % of physical attacks from the direction you are facing will be blocked (based on stats/level)
  • This is the reason for turning your character toward mouse while blocking
  • Blocking a physical attack causes it to do no damage

I think this should feel pretty "right" and it make melee more fun. Any ideas?

[Deathweaver]

actually sounds pretty awsome.

something you may have already though of but;

later on you might need some sort of modifier to hold (like ctrl or alt) so that when you press it and use left mouse you cant attack, only move. would make moving w/o accidentaly hiting somthing easier in a crowded situation.

[Karl G.]

I thought about that, actually, and I don't think it'll be too big of a problem. Unlike in Xenimus, where you attack anything you "run into" while moving, that doesn't happen here--so if you've got a sword out and you keep your mouse far away from your character, you won't attack anyone.

Bows, however, I can see being a little tricky. I'll add the attack modifier key if it becomes too much of a problem.

[Cagen]

I like the idea of being able to block in real time, this will bring some more skill/enjoyment to fighting. It needs to be diminishing though and the higher your level the higher chance you have hit a lower level player if they are blocking. As per the block percent being diminishing, you don't want players just holding block and being invincible, this would ruin PvP. It could diminish each successive hit depending on when you last blocked, so for example if you block every attack the first block would block 100% damage, second would block 80%, third 60%, forth 40%, fifth 20%, then 0% after that. How ever if you block an attack and don't block for the next X seconds (2-5?) or hits maybe (though if you based it on hits, it would take away from people having high attack speed), the block percent will be reset back to 100% and would diminish from there.

Also, you'll have to come up with some balance for using 2 handed weapons, 2 handed swords/axe etc. would be useless if you can't block/parry and especially staves for mages as they wont be able to block or take much damage (though they are very maneuverable with trans.)

[Draco]

I like this... but perhaps it can be changed so things can be more versatile.

I think the attacking system is nice in xen, you click something, and you attack it... simple and easy to use.

Maybe here, when you click on a monster, it puts a faint target under the monster's feet indicating they're your chosen target.

You should allow players to change their actions...

(M1 = Mouse 1 / leftclick)
(M2 = Mouse 2 / rightclick)
(M3 = Mouse 3 / middle button)

All of these [Things] are keys that can be changed in the options screen to any buttons or keys. If you double click some keys, it should show a list of M1, M2 or M3 for you to choose from, as well as be able to change them to normal keyboard keys by just clicking once.

[M1] Primary Attack
[M3] Block
[M2] Some other option for right-click
[Shift] Move in Direction

Someone could change it around to...
[Shift] Primary Attack
[M2] Block "block using right-mouse"
[M3] The original M2 option, or none... in case someone doesn't have a 3 button mouse.
[M1] Move in Direction

With the second set of keys, you could hover your mouse over a monster and just hit shift and your character will go towards it and choose that as the attack target... while normally clicking leftmouse will just move in the direction, and not hit anything.

This would be so versatile, allowing players to set even Attack to 'A', or set Block to the first mouse button, set Move in Direction to 'S', ect...

----

As for the balance of 2H weapons to blocking... with one of my other ideas about spells being on equipment, this could allow 2H weapons to give a buff for critical hits with their weapon, or some special attacks, or maybe just make the damage even more for 2H weapons.

I think maybe there can be a barely visible bar showing next to a player's HP or somewhere, or maybe not show at all... that controls the blocking rate of a player.

It can start at 100%, and each time the player blocks, it reduces damage taken equal to the blocking power left upon being hit.

Each time a player blocks, their blocking power goes down by 1/3rd of current.

Example shown:
Player is idle with 100% blocking power.
Player blocks, not taking any damage; Blocking power reduced to 67%
Player blocks, taking 33% of full potential damage; Blocking power reduced to 45%
Player blocks, taking 55% of full potential damage; Blocking power reduced to 30%
Player blocks, taking 70% of full potential damage; Blocking power reduced to 20%
Player blocks, taking 80% of full potential damage; Blocking power reduced to 13%
Player blocks, taking 87% of full potential damage; Blocking power reduced to 4%
Player blocks, taking 96% of full potential damage; Blocking power reduced to 1%
From here on, player takes 99% damage.

You see, the more you block, the more of an impact you're taking and the less you're likely to withstand the next attack fully, but at least you're still able to hold your shield up, which still helps. Perhaps the maximum blocking power can be about 80%, to allow at least 20% damage to go through even on the first hit.

This allows blocking to be relatively helpful overall, no matter how much you block, until it gets to the point where you're blocking too much and just taking beating after beating til where blocking is pointless.

Perhaps if your blocking power is below 10% you can't block until it goes back up to 10%... but if you're always blocking, you're only reducing your damage by 10% every time you're able to again... which in the middle of battle would be every 2 seconds... not worth taking 10% damage less when you can deal much more in damage to your opponent unless you really need that 10% less on the next hit to keep you alive.

Blocking power can have a steady recovery rate, like 5% of "maximum block rate" a second... if you're at 20% blocking rate out of 80% it would take 15 seconds or so to reach 80% again... and if you haven't been hit/blocked a hit within the last 5 seconds, the recovery rate can be 10% (of maxmum block rate) a second... it would take 7.5 seconds to get back up to 80% from 20%.

Regenning 5% of maximum block rate (80% from shield) = 4% blocking power a second.
Regenning 10% of maximum block rate (80% from shield) = 8% blocking power a second.

Regenning 5% of maximum block rate (50% from staff) = 2.5% blocking power a second.
Regenning 10% of maximum block rate (50% from staff) = 5% blocking power a second.

----

Also, mages can already be balanced and be able to block, but maybe there can be "maximum blocking rates" for certain things...

Lower shields can offer maximum blocking rates of 60%... and higher shields offer 80%.

Staves can offer 50% max blocking rates... meaning mages can still block but the first hit they block will only be reduced by 50%, then the 2nd hit by 33%, third reduced by 22%, fourth by 15%, ect... (Note, these examples are without the block rate recovery time in place)...

Of course there's going to have to be adjusting, but I tried to get as close to a good system as possible.
This system would also allow shields and staves to have unique maximum blocking rates/regen rates, depending on how much the player likes to block... and adds more versatility to more shield and staff variations.

"Most staves"
Blocking Power: 50%
1st hit reduces dmg by 50%
This shield regens 2.5% power/sec in battle.

'Guard Staff'
Blocking Power: 75%
1st hit reduces dmg by 75%
This shield regens 3.75% power/sec in battle.

"Most shields"
Blocking Power: 80%
1st hit reduces dmg by 80%
This shield regens 4% a sec in battle.

'Guardian Shield'
Blocking Power: 95%
1st hit reduces dmg by 95%
This shield regens 4.75% power/sec in battle.

Of course, only the "Blocking power" or something similar would show in the item stats, not the other details.

[Cagen]

Nice Draco, that's pretty much the basics of what I suggested but with a lot more detail. Also I love the idea of being able to map the core functions (movement, attacking, blocking etc.) to the 3 different mouse buttons/designated keyboard keys how I please.

I just thought of something to oppose high attack speed, I'm not going to try and work it into your example though Draco heh. Having high attack speed is what could break this overall blocking idea. If it takes 2 seconds to regenerate blocking power and your character has very high agility/attack speed on items then they are going to hit a lot of times in those 2 seconds, this is going to give an advantage to any thief/ranger/rogue type character and attack speed is going to be the only thing worth raising on a character (as it is in Xen right now).

As agility also increases speed a long with attack speed bonuses on items, how about we have constitution also add to block power or the block regeneration rate. This way the other classes that aren't going to have super high agility can add to constitution and block more attacks/block more damage (as a tank type character should).

There would be a lot of balancing issues to work out to make the classes and gear work correctly but if you have cons add to blocking they wont be at as much of a disadvantage to extremely high attack speed/crit classes (if they see it coming and manage to block that is.)

[Karl G.]

You misunderstand the "block" action. Block will prevent a certain % of hits from the front from hitting you at all; i.e. they are "blocked". Hits that are not blocked get through and do their full effect (damage reduced by armor).

[Cagen]

I understood the original concept you put forward but there should be no way to block damage completely in succession and added my own suggestion, making it diminishing and Draco then elaborated on it.

[Draco]

Yeah I believe I understood it but I agree, blocking damage completely would be a little bit much.

In a reality sense if you hold up a shield and someone wails on the shield breaking you down, you can only hold the shield sturdy for so long before you start feeling very much of the impact from it.

I really like the constitution idea you have Cagen, honestly I didn't think of agility and speed being a factor over blocking, but I think your addition would balance it.

It would also give mages another reason to add to constitution if they wish, considering they can block with staves / mage-type shields.

I like the concept of being able to hit a key or click the mouse to block... in xen it was random and unable to be controlled... I actually thought of that a long time ago, why the hell are we blocking when we don't choose to? why can't we choose when to block?

[Sankt Pauli]

Both systems sound nice to me, i just have two concerns:

- Can blocking (or any other 'tactical' move here) be executed useful in such a really speedy gameplay?
I'm especially asking this towards draco here, since his idea seems to be based on a 'every single hit' basis.

- Wouldn't this put mages in a quite supreme position, since they can block but their spell attacks can't be blocked?
Probably that part would need to be seen with actual testing, maybe including to block spells could help there, incase it really should be imbalanced.

[Draco]

It does seem like it would be hard to execute in the middle of battle...

Players could swap between attacking and blocking quick, allowing players to become better at the game... but we have to make sure blocking adds some kind of disadvantage to attacking, so players aren't attacking and blocking alternately just to make damage lower in the beginning of PVP.

Maybe make there be a small delay immediately after blocking before you can swing/cast again.

Attacking with normal attacks would probably be best when you're wanting to block, if players are allowed to click to attack, and in the middle of attacking they can hold their "block" action to block, and when the hit connects, they let go and the character automatically keeps attacking their current target.

For experienced players, they can do things such as aim their mouse in the direction of a monster they really want to block, use spin attack, block that monsters attack, immediately use spin after, block the attack again, ect.

Mages could be at a bit of an advantage, being able to block and their spells are unblockable... however, that's why mages are only allowed say a 50% maximum block and lower regen rates, if need be it can be adjusted easily.

Also remember these are just ideas at the moment and things can be adjusted to balance it all, I'm sure.

[Draco]

Separate addition to blocking:

I realized, with this system... the game could have certain monsters that 'charge' an attack before unleashing it... maybe such as...

Every once in a while, one of the stronger skeleton monsters may stand still, pull their sword back, and lunge forward like a run attack hitting the player... all together the time before the lunge would be like a half of a second.

The player can see the monster is about to lunge at them, and if they have enough time to think and act, they can aim towards it, hit Block, and prevent some of that damage.

[Sankt Pauli]

Sounds not bad, basically a system which spices up pvp with defensive tactics is something very important anyways (bad example = xenimus, where you just slap the other dude till the morning comes without any 'active' defense possibilities).
My concerns were more generally, like whatever system gets implemented those are two points to watch out for.

But maybe having blocking (maybe even attacking aswell) time-based instead of click-based could help the speedy 'flow'. Then again, maybe not. Lulz. :J

[Karl G.]

Both systems sound nice to me, i just have two concerns:

- Can blocking (or any other 'tactical' move here) be executed useful in such a really speedy gameplay?
I'm especially asking this towards draco here, since his idea seems to be based on a 'every single hit' basis.

- Wouldn't this put mages in a quite supreme position, since they can block but their spell attacks can't be blocked?
Probably that part would need to be seen with actual testing, maybe including to block spells could help there, incase it really should be imbalanced.

Blocking should be able to be effectively executed in fast gameplay; it doesn't introduce any delay and is meant more as a counter-move. For example, someone is wailing on you with a sword, you just start blocking their attacks. They have to change tactics (run around to your back, where blocking doesn't work--giving you time to adjust) or they won't do as much damage. The disadvantage to you is that while blocking, you can't attack them, move, or cast spells. You are focusing on fending off their attacks, after all.

As far as mages go, I was originally intending to have a "magical block". For those of you who play smash bros, think "Z" button bubble. In "magical blocking blocking" mode (which does nothing to prevent physical attacks), you could either (a) reduce damage from spells or (b) have a chance of reflecting some % of their effect. I think this would make for a real "counterspell" (someone is beaming you over and over? reflect it and force them to chance tactics. This would also force mages to fight smarter against melee types, because if the melee type is just sitting there reflecting damage you're hurting yourself as much as them--but if you get them out of blocking mode, you'll do your full damage without hurting yourself).

However, there are some fundamental problems with a magical block. For one, mages using staves (the normal mage weapon) have no ability to block physical attacks, but all characters would be able to block magical ones. Secondly, a magical block that reflects might be too powerful. Finally, adding another type of blocking could be too complex.

The definition of an incredibly fun game is one that is easy to play and learn but hard to master. I suppose this is the root of my distaste for intricately designed systems with inconsistent timeouts, delays, build-ups, cool-downs, charging periods, power reduction, limiters and regenerative abilities. My gut feeling is that there is a better way that is more simple and will end up being more fun. You just have to find out what it is.

[Draco]

So true, Karl... I agree completely, that's the way I think of it all too lol.

I think allowing mages to block using staves and mage-able shields is good... the magical shield could be nice too... Damage reflecting... maybe not so much... however: how about making it so while you're blocking using the magical shield, the last offensive spell used on you can be cast back towards the target that cast it on you.

This could be done by holding the button to magically block, then when a beam is cast on you, you can let go of the block and tap magic-block again immediately to cast the spell back... the spell wouldn't be full damage when casting back though.

For every portion of a second you're using the magical shield, an amount of your MP is used up to protect you, and the magical spells would do % less damage.

Would also have to make magical blocking not work so well if you use it a lot without resting on it.

Most of this would be for mage-uses though... but when it comes to fighter types being able to block magical attacks, perhaps they can use their magical-shield buff to help them when they choose to block...

Like when a melee type chooses to block an attack normally, their magical shield "i.e. extrudere" will intensify a bit to help reduce magic damage...

[Karl G.]

OH MAN! Re-casting is a SWEET idea. I really like that. Would there be any problem with just making it recast the last offensive spell when the magic shield is released?

So here's the idea: have 4 different types of input for the mouse:

Mode 1: Movement Only (no attacking)
Mode 2: Movement and attacking
Mode 3: Physical (Shield) Block
Mode 4: Magical Block


You could, for example, map 1/3 to left/right mouse buttons, then have 2/4 mapped to left/right mouse buttons + middle mouse button...or some other ocmbo.

[Draco]

Well, there might be a problem with some newb shielding from a high level mage, and casting the spell back at them...

The spell damage could be adjusted (reduced OR increased) depending on the level of the mage recasting it. If both mages are equal level and it's the same spell, the recast would do say 20% less damage ANYWAY... but if the mage recasting it is like 5 levels higher than the other mage, the damage could actually be more than the original cast.

----

As for the mouse input, I like it... those 4 options are good for actions.

I'd probably have

Movement Only: Leftclick
Movement+Attack: Shift
Physical Block: Rightclick
Magical Block: Middle Mouse

[Joe M.]

I would like to see some such system implemented, but my suspicion is that this is quickly becoming too complex, to the point that one couldn't "just play the game."

[Serenity]

I like these ideas, but it's really complex. I kinda like the simplicity of Xenimus. You have one primary attack spell that you'll use and not much else to do. Not to say that I'd rather have that system, but having all this stuff to do could detract from gameplay if you're constantly having to use it for things outside of PvP. I wouldn't enjoy having to kill mobs by block, attack, block, attack, attack, magic block, attack.

[Karl G.]

I would like to see some such system implemented, but my suspicion is that this is quickly becoming too complex, to the point that one couldn't "just play the game."

Yeah, I agree. I'll be thinking hard about how to solve this for the next update.

[Draco]

Could just make it so blocking can be automatic by choice, so the player doesn't have to block on their own... the game can take over and block, but it wouldn't happen too often...

Versatility +1

If anyone WANTS to block on their own, they still can... just means players can turn off Automatic Blocking, and use a magical buff increase rather than magic blocking.

[Burnt Ferret]

Perhaps the auto blocking would work fine for monsters, but for pvp, a manual blocking may add some benefit, or work better than "auto" to implement some sort of "skill" to the pvp system.

[Cagen]

I wouldn't enjoy having to kill mobs by block, attack, block, attack, attack, magic block, attack.

Most mobs you would hunt would die in one or two AOE spells/abilities so you wouldn't have to block against them. In PvP where the person you are fighting as a lot more HP/AC you would. I would like to have to block against high level mobs and bosses.

If you have a threat system in place so we can actually have tanks and DPS characters (something Xen never achieved), having to manually block as the guy tanking the boss will make it more involving and skillfull, instead of just hitting taunt and then a damaging spell/ability.

[Draco]

Ehhh threat system... that's one thing I liked Xen not having, and why I didn't like WoW so much... Xen was: monsters attack the first player they see, and if they're hit, the monster might change targets.

Any other inputs ppl?

I like the blocking system, and perhaps some stronger tank-like monsters and bosses would take a while to kill so players actually can take advantage of blocking...

Also, like I said, make some monsters attack with stronger attacks every once in a while which warn the player they're about to attack... so the player has a chance to act on it.

[Cagen]

I can see how a threat system could mess up hunting however I was meaning for more boss type mobs. The major problem Xen had with the "bosses" was that there was no threat system, mages just died everywhere with no way for them to be protected. I wouldn't like a threat system while hunting but for bosses, they should be able to be taunted by a tank type character.