New idea for game controls

[Karl G.]

For next update I want to make spell combos more visible and useful by changing the control system around a little. I think this might be a compromise between the controls that we have now and the controls of Xenimus that people should be able to grasp easily and use effectively. Specifically, I wanted to address the 'weird' feeling of having to press a key in order to swing your sword. I agree that clicking seems more natural, and this could be the solution.

Please give me feedback!

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What is now the effect key-binding screen would now have two lists, one on each half of the screen. On the left, you can choose up to three spells and "combo" them together, creating a "spell combo" on a list on the right. On the right side, a key can be bound to the entire spell combo.

Back in the main game, if you press the key for a combo, various things will happen:

• A list (not interactive, just text maybe a spell icon and a marker) will pop up in one part of the screen
• The marker will point to which spell currently needs a target, if any
  • Casting a 'flamma' spell, for example, requires a target for the 1st spell, so the marker would 'sit' on spell 1
  • Casting an AOE + hex mortis hydra requires a target for spell 2, so the marker would wait on spell 2
• If the marker is waiting on a target, right clicking will select the target
• Once the combo has no more spells requiring targets, it is cast
• If a spell combo requires a target, it remains the 'active' spell until the user switches spells, re-presses the original key, or hits stop action
• If a spell combo doesn't require a target, it is just used, then goes away

Here's are a few examples of how this might work:
Player BOB sets 'K' to "strike". When BOB presses K, "[] > strike", where [] is a sword icon and > is a marker of some sort, pops up in the corner of his screen. Whenever he right-clicks, BOB's avatar swings his sword. BOB happily left-clicks to move, and right-clicks to attack the monsties of Evidyon.

Player STEVE sets 'F' to "explosion AOE". When STEVE presses F, "[] explosion AOE" pops up, the spell is cast, and the text fades away. To repeatedly cast the AOE, STEVE just mashes the button over and over--no input required.

Player RAPLH sets 'Q' to "explosion AOE + hex mortis hydra + pirinand". When RALPH presses Q, he gets:

• [] explosion AOE
• [] > hex mortis hydra
• [] pirinand

on his screen. Since the explosion doesn't require a target but hex mortis hydra does, he has to click to select a target for HMH. Once he clicks, the combo executes (since pirinand doesn't require a target). Because this combo required a target, it stays "active" and he can re-cast the spell by clicking again to select the target for the next HMH.

Finally, player ERICH sets '5' to "self healing", '4' to "defense buff" and 'E' to targeted heal. When ERICH presses 5, he heals. When he presses 4, he casts the defensive spell. When he presses 'E' he has to click on the target--but the targeted spell stays active, so he can heal rapidly by clicking repeatedly.


The reason I wanted to do it this way was to accommodate combos as pressing a single key. I'm looking into the future, and I'm thinking that shady people with key-pressing programs would be able to execute combos much more easily than you if I were to keep the current combo method, which requires holding down multiple keys at the same time.

If this is too complex I can try to make some simple mockups (or just implement it )

[Cagen]

Sounds interesting. Would it take a lot of coding to implement? Trialling it would probably be best to get the idea over, however if it is going to take a lot of effort to code and people reject it, it would be a bit of a waste.

I am not keen on the right clicking though and you should make sure you can't combo damaging spells and healing spells. Being able to attack and heal at the same time would be far too over powered.

Also, I think strike should just be taken out of the spell list and keyed to left mouse button press, left click for movement unless you click on a player/mob at which time it would move towards what you clicked on and attack.

[Sankt Pauli]

I'm not sure about this. I mean, it is not easy to handle all combos atm. But i think that's more a thing of learning and getting used to it. When you're able to 'key' combos it basically aren't 'combos' anymore but rather just regular spells (self-combined ofcourse, but not really 'combo' ish).
The idea is cool, don't get me wrong, it would make things much easier. I'm just not sure if it wouldn't become a bit too easy to combo stuff then.

As for melee and clicking, how about this (only 'brainstorming' here):
You can create your own strikes (or let's better call them 'battle moves') where you can combine a certain number of melee-spells.
Let's say 'wilburt' hates clicking 10989 times for swinging, also his doc mentioned he might lose his hand because of it. So wilburt opens the 'battle move' box. He throws a strike, firestrike, and comboed attack into it. He saves it and assigns a key to it (wilburt chose 'o').
Now everytime he pushes 'o' his char does those three melee moves one after another (strike, firestrike, combo). And to prevent odd results and cheating he can only add up to ugh...like 10 moves (random number).

Edit: Actually i just noticed i was contradicting myself here a bit, so wilburt won't be able to include 'combos' in his 'battle moves' because he wouldn't need to combo the combo then...errr.

[Joe M.]

Love this idea. Sounds like it'll need some testing to get right, but the basic idea is great.

[Karl G.]

Since this is entirely client-side, it actually isn't that difficult to implement. The hardest part would be the GUI showing you what is possible

As far as left-click to attack goes, this is much more complex. I could have combos actually be keyed to any mouse button, with the "movement" (left) button being dual-purpose. Here's what I mean:

You have the "Strike" ability, which only works within a certain range. You can equip a combo to the left mouse button, and it always stays active (pressing combo-keys doesn't change the left mouse button's ability binding). If you equip it to the left mouse button (LMB) and LMB is also your movement mouse button, then you'll move if you click anywhere outside of the range of 'strike' and use 'strike' if you click somewhere within the range.

The right mouse button's action would still be as I described above.

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The reason that I want to keep 'strike' as an ability is because not all weapons will use 'strike' to attack. Depending on the item, you might get different abilities--for example, a bow would give you 'shoot bow'. If you're a ranger, equipping a bow might also give you 'multishot'. If you are a higher level fighter, equipping a fire dragon sword might give you 'fire dragon strike' as well as just 'strike'. I want people to be able to switch and use these abilities as easily as they would just regular "hit stuff".

My other motivation is that having to actually use an ability, rather than just sit there and watch your character beat things & get beat on draws the player into the game. You feel like you're more in control--which is what I think leads to a more engaging gaming experience.

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That said, I think that I would like to implement the system I originally described and let you guys test it. Being able to reserve the LMB for interacting with other things in the world (for example, clicking on items to pick them up, clicking on players to follow/interact with them, clicking on merchants...) I think will end up being more valuable.

Until then, try an approximation to what this will feel like in the game, and tell me what you think. Right-click doesn't do anything right now, so try walking around the square holding down LMB and right-clicking to pretend-cast a spell. If you have a USB keyboard you can unplug it and mock switching your current RMB action.

The idea is cool, don't get me wrong, it would make things much easier. I'm just not sure if it wouldn't become a bit too easy to combo stuff then.

Yeah it would be easy to combo spells, but I don't think that repeatedly intertwining your fingers (for me, casting anapiri->anaglaci hydra->hex mortis hydra means pressing 'F'->'T'->'4') in the name of ripping off a spell is particularly useful.

WAIT! BRAINSTORM!!! If you don't read anything else read this!!

What if you were to create the spell combos on the fly? For example, you set up anapiri -> anaglaci hydra - > hex mortis hydra by pressing the key combo once, then it becomes your 'active' combo (and is listed in one corner like I had indicated). Then, the marker rests on hex mortis hydra and each time you right click on an enemy, it will cast that sequence! This would require a slight modification to what I said before about nontarget spells: nontarget spells would require a right-click to cast. So pressing the key for anapiri would activate a 1-entry "combo", then you right click to use it.

How's that? I'm trying to keep the controls for you honest folk good enough and simple enough to compete with the people whom I know are eventually going to use bots to try to cast these things

Sorry for the long post...

[Draco]

It may make a LOT of lesser-complicated players feel at a disadvantage because they don't want to constantly search for new ways to simply cast a magic spell... Like someone else said, it's not even really a combo, it's more like "which mix of spells can I stick together in this new key setting apart from all of my other keys so I can do the most damage possible using the least amount of mp I can with ease?" ... not easy for most, and definitely not very fun for me.. it's a bit tacky.

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With how Xenimus was... and how some weapons gave special abilities, it actually did feel REALLY good and gave people a really nice sense to the game... the Mystic Blade was the only example of this in Xenimus... look how many people used THAT back in the day?

Giving the players a "Special Weapon Attack" key would be nice... the player could set that key to R or whatever, and every time they press R, it'll do whichever special attack their weapon grants them... it can be seen from the inventory on the weapon, or by viewing the key and seeing it as.
Weapon: Fire Dragon Sword
R - Weapon: Fire Dragon Strike

If no weapon is equipped that has a special ability... then...
Weapon: Long Sword
R - Weapon: (None Available)

This could appear in the "Equipment Special Keys" list, optional from the Keys menu... and there can be a different key setting for the primary equipments in the game... you could have a key set for any special abilities for any of the equipments you have on currently... and automatically updates when you switch equipment.

Here's example equipment for the idea.

You press the button to show your current equipment special keys and it'll show:

Weapon: Mystic Blade
Key: R - Blade Morph (morph into mystic blade)

Armor: Mystic Leather
Key: T - Regen Heal (Grants a +1 HP Regen buff upon using any healing spell to a target, non-stackable... this skill would be passive but maybe the key setting can instantly give you the HP Regen without healing)

Shield: Dragon Shield
Key: Y - Flame Defense (Activates a +10% Fire Resistance buff upon casting this ability; cancels if shield is unequipped)

Helmet: Magic Helmet
Key: U - Gain Magic (When used, the player gains 1 MP instantly, with a delay like tabes)

This would allow players to use different special attacks by using only one key per equipment piece, not needing to change the key when a new piece of gear is equipped... just swap between your Fire Dragon Sword to your Mystic Blade and bam, now you hit the same key you normally use for Fire Dragon Strike and you turn into a mystic blade.

You could also make it so only one equipment buff can be used at a time, but equipment instant-uses can be used alongside the buffs... and maybe give rings special abilities but you would have to choose one of the abilities to use, and only 1 ring ability can be used at a time on that key or have the effect of.

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I strongly believe a player should still be able to left-click to attack a monster, but the idea of a "strike" key being able to run a few feet to hit the nearest target automatically WOULD be nice... but don't make it require the player to aim towards a monster themselves... that's just unneeded and messy.

On the automatic hitting of Strike key , or upon left-mouseclick, the character should continously hit the chosen target unless the player chooses a separate target or the first chosen auto-target is dead, then the auto-target strike will choose a new target and continue attacking that one til its dead.

If the player clicks a monster to attack it, and the player hits the auto-target while that clicked monster is still alive, it shouldn't change targets until that one is dead, no matter how close another target is...

There can be a delay on the auto-target... if the player isn't attacking an automatically chosen target for 3 seconds and isn't being hit by that target and the player hasn't already chosen another target, the autotarget falls off and allows the player to attack the next closest target if the auto-strike key is chosen to attack.

[Karl G.]

I feel compelled to point out a few things.
1- "the way xenimus did it" is not a panacea. Xenimus was fun, but that doesn't mean that anything else is not fun or that nothing else can be *more* fun. The point is that if you don't look for new ideas, you won't find them. I'm looking for new ideas. If it turns out that the way Xenimus did it was best, then that's what I'll use, but just recanting "the way xenimus did it" is not helpful. I know how xenimus did it. I know how the controls felt. I played the game, after all.
2- Adding "auto-this" and "auto-that" to the game means, by definition the player plays the game less, and the game plays itself more. Continue down this path, and we all might as well go play Progress Quest. That isn't to say I disagree with the game helping the player out, but if people resort to macroing a game in order to enjoy it (i.e. Xenimus, again) then there's a fundamental design flaw.
3- Spell combos are intended to add "creativity" to the game. There never was any creativity available in Xenimus, and as far as I know no other game really has this sort of customizability. Re-read what you said, Draco:

It may make a LOT of lesser-complicated players feel at a disadvantage because they don't want to constantly search for new ways to simply cast a magic spell

Yes, that's true...because that's the whole point! If it weren't, why should combos exist in the first place? They're an advanced game skill. If a player doesn't want to use them, whoop de doo. They don't have to. Furthermore, once someone finds a nifty combo, they're likely to use it and it will spread to even those who weren't creative enough to come up with it. To finish this thought,

..."which mix of spells can I stick together in this new key setting apart from all of my other keys so I can do the most damage possible using the least amount of mp I can with ease"

If weren't talking about a combo, would that not be the definition of a "good spell"? The difference is that I'm letting players come up with the idea, instead of mandating them myself.

I feel I should mention to anyone reading that I do want your ideas and your input--but we don't move forward by spinning in circles or retreating from new ideas. Think of this less as decision-making and more as brainstorming.

[Joe M.]

Implement it! Implement it!

This is Alpha after all--we're supposed to try crazy things! Maybe this won't work, but if it does, it's going to be pretty damn cool.

Might want to wait until the classes and spells are more simple and solid, though. (that's 1.11, right? so maybe for 1.12 ...).

[Draco]

Well maybe I was slightly misunderstood on part of that.

There was actually two ideas in my original post, one of them was the spell combo system... I like the idea but here's my input to maybe help it be better.

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Don't make the spells stack 100%, considering you're casting 2 or 3 spells all at once... it would make people who don't want to combine spells be forced to be weaker than those who do combine their spells... perhaps a damage reduction per spell added from the original spell's full damage.

This way, a beam can be 100% alone, but when combined with silgra, the total damage would only be increased by +25%.

Or... the first spell can be 100% damage, the 2nd spell in the combo can be 50% of full damage for that spell alone, then the third spell can be 25% original spell damage for that spell.

This way, if it's beam+silgra+some other spell: beam does 300, silgra does 200, and the other spell does 100... the combo would do 425 damage in whole, while the beam alone would do 300.

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Allow only so many combo's... like maybe a full list of 5 to 10.

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I will now post the other idea in a separate post.

[Draco]

This is the idea I was thinking in my first post in this thread.

Have a system where players can cast spells that are attached to certain pieces of equipment.

Perhaps there can be a key screen that you can set these keys, and it only shows four key options.

Weapon
Armor
Shield
Helmet

Next to the equipment type, it shows the spell that piece of equipment gives you, and you can set it to any key you wish, so you can cast that spell at any time.

If you take off the equipment, then the key setting can still be there but the ability won't. It just won't cast anything if you press that key for the equipment.

If you equip another piece of equipment that gives a different ability, then it will be able to be cast any time you press the equipment key after you equipped it... rather than having to go back into the keys screen and change the key again (this is what I was saying would automatically update).

This would allow players to put on a helm, cast a spell to heal them or give them MP or something instead of using much of their MP, and then take the helm off, put on their main helm and use a different spell for that helm without having to change the key.

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The only pieces of equipment in xen that offered this were the Mystic Blade, and the Dragon Staves... look how much people liked those... Xenimus hardly integrated this but what was done was awesome... so I used that to come up with something unique for here.

[Karl G.]

Draco--

Your idea for equipment "slots" makes a lot of sense, and even better it's extensible: I think I'll implement consumables the same way! You can equip up to a certain number of "consumable" items (yes, they can be stacked). The "spell" that they let you use would consume a unit of the item.

[Draco]

Hehe I like that one...

I just realized my idea about spells being on equipment actually reminded me of a game I used to play, I'm sure at least a couple others from here have played it too. Lufia 1 & 2... I do have to say though, this system in the game was awesome still and I think it'll be more awesome in Evidyon.

[Cagen]

I like the spell item slots idea, however i don't think that a lot of gear should have spells accompanying them, there could be a few low level items to give people a taste for it (that give appropriate low level abilities) and then more on high level gear and gear that is hard to obtain and fairly rare. Part of the reason people in Xen liked it so much was because it was only on a couple of items, making it all the rarer and exciting to get. There should be more then just 3 though, that was too little however I don't think every item should be given this ability. A few random items could have it and then give the good stuff from rare boss drops and some item sets but perhaps only after you acquire the whole set do you get the spell.

[Draco]

I like that addition Cagen.

I agree it shouldn't be on too many of the items in the game... maybe some of the more unique items, the ones with a completely separate name and look from other items in the game can give special abilities.

Being able to complete a full set and gaining an ability would be nice. Of course it wouldn't matter which key for which equipment you're casting the spell from... could cast it from "Weapon", first one on the list and probably the most common used, or hell- all of them.

I was thinking more about Lufia and I thought maybe there can be a different bar like HP or MP only this would be like AP was in Lufia... AP built up as you took damage and when you used a special ability from equipment, it took the points away from your AP... any other ideas to add to this? I don't want to suggest this AP system directly... wanna find something unique but I just woke up a little bit ago lol...

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Hey Karl, you're saying you can equip certain consumable items to your equipment slots along with the spell being there, so when you use the spell, it uses up the consumables you equipped? It kind of sounds good... but kind of tacky... how about this?

You can take consumable items and your equipment to a shrine and you put the consumables in a screen or on the ground (like item shrine in xen) and you can enchant your equipment with the consumable items... this would grant your equipment its "ability source" which can be used for the abilities later... or perhaps you could make it so players can enchant their items like this without going to a shrine, just open the screen (like mixing potions) and enchant!

Different items could give different amounts of energy to your equipment... maybe it could be all gems (with all the gems in the game, the different gems could provide different amounts)...

These examples are based on a 255 ability power maximum.

Here's some xen examples (with "Ability Power")
white pearl - 2 AP
blue pearl - 1 AP
opal - 8 AP
emerald - 10 AP
black pearl - 255

Note these examples are from xen, and are just examples... don't worry about how rare the items were or think "hey I could just use 128 white pearls and get 255 AP, screw the black pearls" They're just examples.

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I'll be back very soon, hey Cagen you got MSN? PM me it if u have it.

Imma go get myself some coffee and somethin to drink.

[Karl G.]

I like that addition Cagen.....Imma go get myself some coffee and somethin to drink.

The next update will include a system I've already designed to do something quite like this, actually: the geosids. By sacrificing items to the geosids, you extract their genite and are able to use it for various purposes. Different items are worth different amounts of genite. By using the genite you store, you can do everything from regenerate your HP/MP to infusing potions, recharging an item's spell power, opening a portal to a distant location, and more.


As far as the consumables go, that was more of a note to myself. Just ignore it.

[Draco]

Hell yeah I REALLY like that concept! This is awesome...

Oh yeah, I already saw what I typed before I actually posted that one saying I'm gonna go "get coffee and something to drink" in my mind I thought I was typing something else, but I was still tired... I took a second look at my post to make sure everything was right, laughed at that, and hit Post anyway lol.

You sure you wanna use "Genite" as the energy source from the Geosids?

Genite... Geniteals... Genitals... heh... *shrug* fine by me, though I'm sure it won't be laughed at too much in the future... or will it?
O_??

I like Genite, sounds cool, aside from the fact it looks relative to Genital... maybe that'll add even more to the coolness.

These are some awesome ideas.

[Karl G.]

haha well honestly I didn't even think of that connection...maybe a different name is in order. Genisite was the old name, but that seems too long to be memorable. Also I wanted something more distinct from Geosid, which is the crystal

I suppose we could call it geosite, then just call them geosite crystals....

[Draco]

That's cool, that's actually what I was thinking when I was thinking of a new name... considering it's Geosids, not Geonids... or w/e.

Geosite or Geonite vote +1

[Karl G.]

Well the world is called Geona...so Geonite would make sense. But that's three syllables ... well I guess people would end up saying geo crystals anyway