I need your input

[Karl G.]

Hey everyone,

I've been thinking pretty hard about this and I want to know what you would like to see happen with this project. There are basically two options here:

#1: Continue to develop as currently planned (either license EJ's content or buy new content with donated money--I've been trying both). This means:

• A monthly fee can be charged to cover server costs and continue devlopment of models, etc
• We don't rely on EJ's content
• Development will be slower
• We develop what is essentially a new game

#2: Release current code as open-source under the GPL, and reference a downloaded version of Xenimus. As shown by the precedent of every "mod" from Half-Life's CounterStrike to AIM's MiddleMan, EJ would not be able to sue even if a version of Xenimus were to be hosted here. This means:

• PV can never charge a monthly fee, and will rely on donations to run
• Everyone can look at the code and potentially create their own games from it (although with correct licensing this would be limited)
• Development could be augmented because more people can work simultaneously on it

#3: Try to negotiate with EJ to get a license for the Xenimus content, letting him know about the possiblity of #2


So, let me what you think! Personally, I believe #2 is the best option at this point even though it might create trouble in the future.

[Vitriol]

#3. if he declines, we go for #1.

[Ender]

All we really need content-wise are the models, right? Maps, music, textures, and game mechanics aren't holding us back. By the time PV is even close to beta we will have more content than we can use.

So what do we do about the models? I think the first priority should be to replicate the objects and tiles used in the map maker. These are simple - pillars, posts, etc. There are enough of us proficient in 3D modeling programs to knock this out in a week or two. Textures are even easier, considering XenTales has over a dozen people that jump at the slightest chance to show eachother up in photoshop.

While we do need to do something about the animated models, we don't need the final versions right now. For development purposes, EJ's suffice. I'm not saying that we should stop looking for and working on character models, but I don't think we have reached the point where our model problem is bad enough that we must license content from EJ. I still have faith that someone in the community will be able to make them. If not from scratch, than maybe by modifying a purchased base model.

I also advocate a strictly controlled open source policy. I think Karl and the programmers should figure out tasks for each of them to work on, and then have Karl give the relevant code out to them (and no one else). Let's face it, we all have different views about how PV should be. Eventually, we are going to face some tough decisions, and some people won't be happy. We are a small community, and we just can't afford to have factions running off to create their own game for stupid reasons.

[Karl G.]

Very well said Ender. Would you mind posting a checklist of items to create?

[figgles]

Pardon me for intruding, but what exactly do you hope to accomplish by open sourcing the project? Have you actually thought about it?

I also advocate a strictly controlled open source policy.

Strictly controlled open source policy? Sounds a bit contradictory. And that would be? Well, let's just hear the rest of it.

I think Karl and the programmers should figure out tasks for each of them to work on, and then have Karl give the relevant code out to them (and no one else).

Hmm, that doesn't sound like open source to me. Once again, what benefits do you hope to accomplish by not allowing anyone to work on the project? One of the coolest things about collaboration is when someone who you have no idea is submits a patch to be approved that implements something or fixes something else. You need to go live in an open source world, maybe go submit a few patches before you suggest source code management schemes in an open source project.

Let's face it, we all have different views about how PV should be. Eventually, we are going to face some tough decisions, and some people won't be happy. We are a small community, and we just can't afford to have factions running off to create their own game for stupid reasons.

So you are promoting open source because... ?
I have no Microsoft Windows systems. They are all Linux, BSD, or Solaris boxes -- all of which are now open source (Yes, even Solaris). Here is one thing you need to know about systems of software (such as an MMORPG) that are open source: they will get modified and redistributed. Your version (the "official" version) may not even be the most popular version. Check out the history of X11 and XFree86.

You will have clients from non-Karl approved sources connecting to your servers (think you can stop it with your source code available? No, they know exactly how your validation works, and how to go around it). You will have servers that are heavily modified claiming they are PV servers. You will have new MMORPGS that use the server, the client, the engine, or all. Simply put, you will have *tons* of derivative work. If you need an example, just check out the Linux world. Need some specific projects? How about:

Linux kernel
X Windows (X.org)
KDE
GNOME
Linux Distrobutions (which include hundreds, sometimes thousands, of modified programs under the same name).

Hell, Xenimus is being cloned by this project, and you don't even have access to the source code. So what do you expect to happen when an even larger group (aka, the 'net') has access to it?

Karl needs to do some research on the GNU GPL (v2 and v3), LGPL (v2 and v3), and BSD licenses. I don't think GPL is a good idea for this, and certainly not the GPLv3. I also suggest that anyone making suggestions about or implementing project management do some reading, maybe participate in some open source projects, and generally gain some more knowledge. Ragtag project management ("you do this, you do that") and "we don't need project management" are solutions that don't work for proprietary OR open source projects.

I suggest that the following projects be examined for project/sourcecode management strategies:

ReactOS
Linux kernel
WINE
GNU GCC

I also suggest that you read the licenses I mentioned above. You don't have to adopt them, just understand their words. I also suggest you know the difference between:

Free Software & Open Source Software (GNU vs OSI)
GNU GPL & GNU LGPL
Project Management vs Source Code/Asset Management


Yeah, it will take a few hours to do the research/reading. Big deal. Knowledge is power, and that power can potentially keep your project from have some really large headaches.

Patrick Baggett

[Kuristopher]

#3 sounds like a good idea but if it doesnt work i would like to go straight to 1

[Ender]

Figgles - I wasn't trying to promote a completly open source policy. I just suggested that relevant parts be open source to programmers in the PV community (and nowhere else). That's why I stuck the "strictly controlled" in there. I'll admit it isn't the best name for it, but as described this "strictly controlled open source" policy addresses most of the problem areas you listed. I do think you are right in saying we should watch out for "ragtag" project management, but I have faith that the PV community has enough communication skills to avoid this pitfall. Seeing as you have experience with this stuff, what would you suggest we do?

Karl - I'm going to send a few bucks via paypal today, so then I can download the mapmaker and make up a checklist, with screenshots for each item. Would you like this to be posted in a new thread, or in one of the existing modeling ones?

edit: I have to wait 3-4 days for an extended use number to show up on my bank statement before Paypal lets me send anything, so it'll be that long until I can donate. Until then I'll go back to working on music. When I can donate and get the mapmaker I'll do the checklist and help with the 3D models.

[Karl G.]

Ender--that sounds great! Let PM me your email address/paypal info when you donate so I can mark you down and send you the link.

[9sam1]

number 2 sounds good.