Thoughts on sub-classing.

[Vitriol]

How about this
Fighter
choose between
Warrior (traditional fighter)
Barbarian (Barb class as it is now)
------------------------------
Ranger
choose between
Archer (ranger as is)
Thief (old thief class, focus on daggers, short swords)
---------------------------------
Holy Class
Paladin
Cleric
---------------------------------
Wizard
Pyromancer (wizard, strong fire spells, VFV etc)
Hydromancer (wizard, ice/water spells)
---------------------------------
Warlock/Witch
Electricity Warlock (think of a better name, but Zap, other electrical spells, chain lightning, bolts etc)
Poison Warlock (get a better name, good poison spells.)
--------------------------------

So the class list would be: Fighter , Ranger, Holy class (think of something for this) , wizard, warlock.
Then you choose subclass at level 5 or so.
Subclasses would only differ slightly from one another.

[thadiusofx3]

I actually really like this idea.

[Vitriol]

I will even personally come up with spell-level lists for each class and subclass if Karl gives the go ahead. Ive got so many ideas here.

[thadiusofx3]

I'm trying to think of a name for the holy class(es)

[thadiusofx3]

Priest?

[Vitriol]

Priest?

Sounds good. Monk? Priest sounds better. Monk implies martial arts crap.

[thadiusofx3]

yeah that was my reasoning, I had thought about monk

[Karl G.]

Vitriol--

In Born to Rule, we had planned to use a complex subclassing system and, after much discussion, found that it could be made to work very nicely if implemented well.

We're going to need unique parts to this game and we're almost to the point where the content-fun begins, so go ahead with this for sure!

Karl

[Ratiotile]

Since we are leaning away from the traditional class based system that Xenimus had, we should consider creating a more innovative system.

Players always want more classes, more subclasses, more different spells, etc. More choices results in more possibilities for character development, fewer cookie-cutter builds, and more unique characters. Everyone wants a unique character. However that just isn't possible in Xenimus because you are limited to a couple of good builds per class.

Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians today have basically ONE 'best' build: get agility to 29 before spin, then go str or agi until agi hits 39/50, str until 60. This leads to characters like 60, 39, X, 19, 20, and they dominate because of the way agil/ str system works. Players who get cons don't get enough HP to offset the damage they are losing from not getting str, as str also gives HP. Characters who don't get agility can't hit anything, because of EJ's new(well, since 05) emphasis on agility. Characters who have put points into intelligence and wisdom have basically wasted those points, because they get enough MP without intel/wis and int gives an insignificant amount of bonus exp. Wisdom doesn't give enough either, because extra skill points come only every 10 points.

The mages have more choices, because they have 2 important stats, cons and either int or wis. Melee classes only had 2 choices for agility: 29 or 39, and the rest go to str until 60. Mages can go either HP, or a few more balanced builds, but they are still boring. Stats like these: 19,19,81,19,19 or 19,19,39,50,20. Switch int and wis around for clerics and druids and there you have it. Agility is useless, Str is only gotten for armor, and the other mage stat is useless because of the 10 attribute points between 1 skill point.

When EJ created Xenimus there were 5 classes. Now he has added 3 more. Look at every other RPG out there; they have all added more and more classes. Have you ever seen an expansion that didn't promise more classes?

I propose a solution to the more classes craze: The infinite class/classless system. These two terms are equivalent. In order to bring about a near-infinite possibility of character development, there are no rigidly defined classes. Characters will not be defined merely by their stat points.

This is how such a system would work:
In the character creator there would be no choice of class, but possibly a choice of character 'direction' being towards melee, ranged, or magic. Players would choose skills they want to work on more than others ( major skills ). There might be a selection of possible character traits that one could choose, each having advantages and drawbacks.

There is a skill point system and a new bonus system, which I'll call the Talent system for now. It would appear to be similar to the Feat system in D&D or the Perk system in Fallout, only more powerful. Each level, or every X levels, characters will get to choose a Talent.

Talents will be what set characters apart; they will mean a great deal. There should be something for everyone: Increased MP, more powerful spells, or cast speed for mages; increased HP, moves like attack run/spin, and fast hit for fighters; and much more.

Talents would have level requirements, stat requirements, and possibly skill requirements. There will be far more talents than you can possibly choose, so getting a mage in plate would mean not picking up that extra 10% spell damage talent.

With careful design and balancing, this system could be the answer to everyone's sub-classing dreams. An innovative system like this will bring back the new, unknown feel that got us into Xenimus.

If people don't like the idea of dropping all class names, and I've heard that before, class titles can be granted to characters who meet requirements for a class. They can have the class name show up in their character screen and get a small bonus for meeting class requirements. Requirements might include skills, certain Talents, and stats. This way we can keep many character possibilities open and still implement all the subclasses that Vitriol suggested. For example, a magic-user who selected many fire-based talents and skills could be granted the Pyromancer class and a small bonus to fire or something.

[Karl G.]

I definitely like this idea; we'd need a LOT of different talents, though.

Would there be requirements to acquire a talent, besides level? Would level even be a requirement, or would it work in tree form (getting this stuff leads to other stuff). I don't really like the "Tree" system too much simply because it forces people to get "unnecessary" skills, but its up for debate.

[Ratiotile]

Those were my thoughts on the tree system as well. I definitely don't think it should be a full tree but certain talents could chain off other related ones. Ideally they would be balanced enough so that none are totally worthless. Take the Diablo 2 skill tree after the latest updates for example: none of the skills are useless. The requirements wouldn't all be level, there could be stat and skill requirements as well.

[Vitriol]

Ooh, im not quite sure I like the idea of going that far from Xenimus's class system. My suggestion was a simple enhancement, not a completely new system.

[Ratiotile]

Vitriol, this system could be used to build the equivalent of the Xenimus classes. Think of the original class system as a set of quanta, mere islands of possibility separated by large gaps. The system I propose would allow the full spectrum of nearly any subclass imaginable.

For example, say we have 2 choices at character creation, two vaguely defined classes: warrior and magic-user. They start with different amounts of HP and MP but gain the same amount per level. The magic-user would obviously be aimed at growing into a mage class, but no talents are blocked from classes: the entire pool is available, if you meet the requirements.

Our magic-user, though talent choices, would begin to fall into different classes as he levels. Lets say at level 5 he could be a warlock, wizard, cleric, or some other undefined class, based on his skill, stat, and talent choices. We could then have it so that a character who met the wizard criteria can further specialize in fire magic through talent and skill allocation. Then he could qualify for the pyromancer title. The same can be done for any subclass that is suggested. A good point in my opinion is that players wouldn't be forced to choose. They could opt to stay a generalized wizard, for instance, and have a more diverse array of spells.

[Vitriol]

Would this not result in high level fighters gaining powerful magic spells? Or high level mages being able to spin?

[Karl G.]

Vitriol--It wouldn't let high level fighters get powerful magic, because they would have had to advance their magic abilities instead of their fighting ones. Attaining both would be nearly impossible because of the limitations on the talents due to level: even though you can only get one every 3 levels (or some other number of levels) each level gets progressively harder, so there is theoretically a maximum practical number of talents a person can acquire. Becoming a great fighter-type would mean not acquiring those magic skills at the same time; however, someone could decide to be a fighting magic user and try for both (but would have to be careful because neither magic nor melee would be as powerful as a specialized character). That's the beauty of the system.

[a_link_to_the_past]

Say for a mage/magic user type. When is it, that they would be able to choose which type of spells to learn? Would they decide when the character is made that they want to use fire type spells? or is it down the road that they get the choice... because if its down the road... does that not make those earlier spells kind of pointless since obviously the spells they are going to be emphasising (fire type) are going to be stronger...

[thadiusofx3]

I think at first we just need to have the basic classes, and later when the game is more complete maybe add subclasses or change the system up.

[Vitriol]

I think at first we just need to have the basic classes, and later when the game is more complete maybe add subclasses or change the system up.

works for me.
So then:

Fighter
Thief
Paladin
Cleric
Wizard
Warlock

It would be quite easy to change the system from this base.

[a_link_to_the_past]

I agree also... thought sub classing in the future might be cool

[Ratiotile]

Link - A system where you can select what spells you get at levelup would be great. Right now it's disappointing to know that you aren't getting any good spells for 4 levels (a level 22 cleric) . That is exactly why I stopped playing old xenimus at around level 15 - At level 12 I got my last good spells and there was basically crap until 18 for egg. Right around that time EJ put in 20% damage update and nerfed cleric red beam to 5 targets. I just lost all motivation to level.

Thadius - That would be great, but the problem now becomes how to gracefully change the system on such a fundamental level. There could be pre-defined classes as options where the talents are automatically selected for you and reflect the Xenimus classes. Then it would be optional to create a custom class. Might be the best of both worlds.

[a_link_to_the_past]

Ratiotile - yeah... I hate the fact that there are so many dead lvls where all you do is gain mp and hp... each lvl should always have something new to try out or learn... oh and btw every time I see your board name... I think of the movie Ratatouille...

[Vitriol]

Ratiotile - yeah... I hate the fact that there are so many dead lvls where all you do is gain mp and hp... each lvl should always have something new to try out or learn... oh and btw every time I see your board name... I think of the movie Ratatouille...

Thats just not.... old xenimus. Besides, what makes you think level 22 will be a routine thing in PV?

[Thunderhorse8128]

Yes, your ideas are great, but what about just a screen telling you where you're at...and the only thing that gets you talents and things of that nature are repetetive use. So if you want to be a pyromancer you use fire spells a lot. and if you want to be a fighter go strictly melee, pallies would be somewhere in the middle. Another idea is a FFX style tree...lemme know what you think

[Ratiotile]

Vitrol - Yes, I remember old Xen, where level 20 was high level. Each level used to mean a whole lot, especially with cumulative stat system, you could get a whole bunch of HP in one level. Old xen was hard on mages until level 8 for VFV, then it was smooth sailing hunting skellies, daemon, even masters. I'm not sure I like massive levels, but I like having high 20's being high level. That way we can make the low levels harder to get and mean much more. I don't like people leveling from 1-10 in 1 day, which was possible with some classes even in old Xenimus. How old school are you talking about? Circa 2001?

Thunderhorse - Your first idea would make it too much like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, where you spam magic, heal, and jump everywhere to level your skills up. I think part of the fun of old Xenimus was leveling up and rushing to town to put points in, and getting to test out new spells. Especially because 1 stat point a level made them more important than the 5 stats you got in Diablo 2.
What was the FFX skill system? Was it the license system? that system is interesting but I don't want to force players to chain through weaker abilities to be able to obtain stronger ones.

[Paz the Spaz]

First, Vitriol, I did not like the way "old xen" was. It encouraged the powergamers that got to the high levels first, and then all they did was kill everyone weaker then they were. a "hardcore" game will in the end, become as bad as xenimus and fail to be fun to anyone other than the high levels. I think that levels should not be impossible tasks only achievable by someone who has nothing to do other than powerleveling. I, as a person who spent a lot of time as a low level in "old xen," can tell you that it was a terrible game. Every day was a horror movie with me dreading when and how many times I would be pked and how much of my extremely hard earned exp and gear I would lose. In my opinion, if you think a game like that will flourish, then you very, very wrong Vitriol.