Unseen Studios

First off let me say that I know it's a little early to be anticipating how Evidyon's leveling system will look like at a more mature and completed stage, but that also makes it a great time for us alpha-testers (or anyone reading this for that matter) to offer some ideas and suggestions for Karl to consider!

The purpose of this thread isn't to ask for a mob north of spawn to give more exp or for warlocks to get fireball at level6, but rather to think in broader terms. What did you enjoy about leveling in Xenimus?

Here are some questions that might help get things started, feel free to answer any of these if you'd like, or share your opinion on the subject. And hey, if you think the Xenimus system is perfect the way it is then that's fine too!

Did you like the challenge of exponential exp growth at higher levels (from 10mil to 25mil) or did it discourage you?
Do you wish there was more to leveling than just spamming AOEs, healing, transing, and collecting loot?
Would you rather take on mobs or take on a skilled monster/boss 1v1 if the rate of exp gain was relatively the same?
Did you like getting only 1 stat point on level up?
Did it bother you that you could only efficiently level playing by yourself rather than in a group?
Should quests be a viable alternative to grinding?
Should you get exp from killing other players?
What could be some other methods to gaining exp aside from killing/questing?
Should there be consumables or some form of temporary exp boosts?

Think of other RPGs you've played, from click-based to MMORPGs, what were some features you liked that you think would make leveling more interesting?

Be creative, you never know when a little idea could become a great idea!

>> Did you like the challenge of exponential exp growth at higher levels (from 10mil to 25mil) or did it discourage you?
Discouraging. Especially when each level meant very little in terms of character advancement. Of course there will have to be a point where the levels take longer to earn, but I don't think it needs to be quite as extreme as Xen.

>> Do you wish there was more to leveling than just spamming AOEs, healing, transing, and collecting loot?
Of course.

>> Would you rather take on mobs or take on a skilled monster/boss 1v1 if the rate of exp gain was relatively the same?
Not sure at what you're getting here, but if it's a question about party systems, I'm always in favour of player co-operation.

>> Did you like getting only 1 stat point on level up?
Yes. It forces you to think about how best to advance your character. The flip side to this is that you can screw your favorite character up pretty easily unless the game provides some (basic) guidelines re: what each attribute affects.

>> Did it bother you that you could only efficiently level playing by yourself rather than in a group?
Yes.

>> Should quests be a viable alternative to grinding?
Well, this is a tricky one. Yes, quests should play a larger part in character development, but you can't make them a completely alternate path unless you spend time coming up with a lot of really dumb ones, which effectively become a grind of their own. I'd say to put a lot of thought into the quests and make a good number of *interesting* ones with varying goals and rewards, rather than a bunch of "go kill X monsters of Y type!" (though such quests are fine for lower levels, in sparing amounts)

>> Should you get exp from killing other players?
Yes, but we don't want to encourage *too* much PvP--simply because it can be *very* discouraging for a less-experienced player to be going out trying to figure out how things work and get pkd every time they step outside town (or worse, every time they spawn). So as long as appropriate safeguards are offered: pvp zone, gve kind of thing, arena system, etc.

>> What could be some other methods to gaining exp aside from killing/questing?
Craft skills. Big fan of these. Of course you'd have to be careful designing any such system, but if there's going to be a bazaar system featured prominently, then it makes sense to make an interesting and useful craft system that allows a character to pursue a career in item-making.

>> Should there be consumables or some form of temporary exp boosts?
Don't really know at what you're getting here.

i think for the temp exp boost thing, he means that should there be a rare item that when drank/used it would give you say, a 50% exp boost

monster normally gives you 100, now gives your 150, or something like that

Did you like the challenge of exponential exp growth at higher levels (from 10mil to 25mil) or did it discourage you?
No, it sucked.
Do you wish there was more to leveling than just spamming AOEs, healing, transing, and collecting loot?
Thats good, a alternative would be nice though
Would you rather take on mobs or take on a skilled monster/boss 1v1 if the rate of exp gain was relatively the same?
once again, both would be nice
Did you like getting only 1 stat point on level up?
Yes
Did it bother you that you could only efficiently level playing by yourself rather than in a group?
Yea, leveling in a group is fun
Should quests be a viable alternative to grinding?
Yes, but not all the time, like you shouldnt be able to level a character solely on Quests
Should you get exp from killing other players?
For sure, gear to
What could be some other methods to gaining exp aside from killing/questing?
Something that might be cool, and a way to make money useful, is to make a shop that sells a item which costs a lot and when used gives you like 5% of what you need TNL, or maybe more, this can also be a really rare item dropped sometimes.
Should there be consumables or some form of temporary exp boosts?
Lol kinda like what i suggested earlier, but yea thatd be fine, if it wasn't to out of control.

I agree that levelling should be easier and quicker then in xenimus.
That just fits the pvp-heavy fastpaced gameplay better in my opinion.

Did you like the challenge of exponential exp growth at higher levels (from 10mil to 25mil) or did it discourage you?
-I'll admit, it discouraged me...but I think it should be kept at higher levels. BUT make the higher levels matter much more for character growth/power.

Do you wish there was more to leveling than just spamming AOEs, healing, transing, and collecting loot?
-I have always like the simplicity of xenimus and hope this game keeps the same principle; however other ways of gaining experience would be nice. I think it would be cool to have some dungeons/shrines/etc that are 'meant' for say level 30+ but if a level 20 is smart enough and creative enough to get to the end (or end boss and win) that person should get a huge bonus exp. Also some quests would be another way to implement exp.

Would you rather take on mobs or take on a skilled monster/boss 1v1 if the rate of exp gain was relatively the same?
-Probably a boss, since bosses tend to drop better gear . However, one thing i liked a lot in xen was grinding adepts and knowing that you're getting good xp and also a decent chance of finding a high end item.

Did you like getting only 1 stat point on level up?
-Yes. Please don't change this.

Did it bother you that you could only efficiently level playing by yourself rather than in a group?
-No. Today xenimus and this game are like the only freaking online games that you can play as a self sufficient character. I hate grouping like in WoW because it makes me feel weak that I always need someone to get me through a boss or area. Keep the solo aspects please.

Should quests be a viable alternative to grinding?
-Maybe not as much a viable alternative....but make them difficult enough so that the exp is enough to justify doing them, and if not the exp then make an item reward justifiable.

Should you get exp from killing other players?
-No. PvPing for drops is the most open ended and fun way to do it. I really thought it was a happy medium in xen where if you don't have a bag on, you drop one random item. I think a good thing would be to make magic bags have a small % chance of failure. Maybe like 5-10% chance to fail.

What could be some other methods to gaining exp aside from killing/questing?
-See above. Oh I just thought of an idea as well. Maybe have a system where you can trade in higher end items for straight up exp. This could in turn keep control of a bloated economy and also get the rich trading type of people (who dont like to lvl) a chance to trade in their hard earned gear into exp.

Should there be consumables or some form of temporary exp boosts?
-IF there are consumable exp boost potions, makes them decently rare drops like white pots.

Re: group leveling:
I'm in favour of a viable party/group system, but Kelchy's right to raise the concern of self-sufficiency. Granted, player interaction is what makes MMOs work, but it shouldn't be to the point of dependence.

Well said Joe.

I would be ok with keeping xen-like soloing but to maybe just add some sort of basic system for grouping? As long as we don't have to depend on other characters abilities and just use grouping more for fun levelling/fighting rather than a necessity then I could see it being enjoyable.

Thanks for all the replies! This post has been very helpful to read

I've actually preempted you guys on the group-leveling system. I've got a method worked out that both allows you to hunt effectively on your own, but makes it so that if you're hunting with someone you'll enjoy shared exp; that way, if you just want to be friendly and go hunt, you don't have to split up. This system, however, does have a protection in place to prevent power-leveling by simply partying your level 50 with a level 2 and hunting high-level monsters.

Oh hey Karl...I dunno if this has been discussed, but one thing I didn't like about xen is when EJ implemented propping. It made the values of items all weird because it depended what props it had. So far I like the way you have done items. Some of the special ones already have set built-in props which (maybe?) was your intention to compensate for propping?

I guess I just prefer that a good item should be a good item and it's stats should be constant. Propping just made the game annoying and really didnt add much to it other than a place to waste your time grinding for more crap to use for propping.

Even though the spell update in xen pissed off a lot of people, I personally think the propping system was even worse for xen.

Xenimus has an interesting grind to it that could be rewarding and agrivating at the same time. EJ put in spells at certain levels to give you the motivation to get there, but sometimes after getting there the reward was pretty paltry. Like i remember getting the big lightning spell on my cleric, it was useless beyond having a cool sound effect. I loved the old spell system, however. The new one sucks as you get the "minor" version of a spell which generally spoils the motivation to get the cool effect. Sure, you can make the effect bigger and more flashy at higher levels, but you still have the base spell.

Good point Ashlar. We definitely don't want to get stuck in a Fireball 1, Fireball 2, Fireball 3, type spell system. I'd like to see spells work like the old spell system where an upgrade isn't just the spell doing more damage and costing more mana than before, that's boring. I'd like to see more spells such as moon beam that upgraded in usability... in moon beams case it was faster casting at higher levels. An idea would be to make a Wizards fireball spell ultimately upgrade to VFV.. where it starts as a single fireball, then upgrades to 3, then 6, etc.

** On a side note: I'd like to see more effort put into a skills system than EJ did with Xenimus.

I'm not saying the new spell system in xen was a good thing. It was a stupid choice on Ej's part too...I just think the propping system was slightly worse and purely pointless.